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European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

bbc.com

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Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#71

Post by allannienhuis »

wongarsu wrote: post #58
qalmakka wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think countries on a blatantly wrong timezone such as Spain should take this opportunity to fix it. For instance, Spain could stay in UTC+1 all year round and go back in the same timezone as Portugal (which is going to certainly pick its summer time as its whole-year round timezone), thus eliminating the artificial shift everything has there (people eat lunch at 14 and dinner at 22, but these times match roughly wi…

I would argue Portugal is the one in the "wrong" timezone here. If you want the sun to be at its high point at noon, Spain is obviously in the wrong time zone. But you see plenty of countries around the world choosing a slightly different timezone to facilitate trade and communication with some other country (or within itself, in the case of larger countries). With most other barriers to trade gone within the eurozon…

Why would you want the sun to be at it's high point at noon?

Perhaps that has value in an agricultural society, but in today's world I'd much rather have more daylight in my leisure hours (evening) than my working hours.

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#72

Post by jwr »

stoolpigeon wrote: post #61
qalmakka wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think countries on a blatantly wrong timezone such as Spain should take this opportunity to fix it. For instance, Spain could stay in UTC+1 all year round and go back in the same timezone as Portugal (which is going to certainly pick its summer time as its whole-year round timezone), thus eliminating the artificial shift everything has there (people eat lunch at 14 and dinner at 22, but these times match roughly wi…

I feel that way here in Hungary. If the Eastern Europe time zone was called something else maybe we'd be in it. In the summer it doesn't matter but I'd kill for sunset an hour later in the winter.

Doesn't switching permanently to summer time fix that exact issue? (we suffer from the same problem in Poland)

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#73

Post by Asooka »

wongarsu wrote: post #2

I'm glad we are getting rid of daylight savings time. It's a biannual disruption of sleep cycles that costs lives (in increased accident rates) for at best marginal benefits: for most of europe sunrise and sunset times change too fast for an additional hour to really matter. Still, I think given the choice most people would have prefered to stay in summer time instead of winter time (or equivalently: to abolish DST a…

I'm only aware of Russia switching to permanent summer time in recent memory and they switched back to permanent winter time two years later because the long dark winter mornings were unbearable. Also, your circadian rhythm doesn't care for where the hand on the clock is and doesn't like being pushed too far outside of where you naturally would have it.

It would be best to keep the clock as close to astronomical time as the timezone system allows and adjust certain business times if required to be off the standard 9-to-5. Which already happens.

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#74

Post by Asooka »

fredley wrote: post #70
Wildgoose wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't vote, don't complain. I live in the UK and I also voted to end the twice-yearly wrecking of our body-clocks with the attendant accidents, injuries and deaths. Moreover from an IT perspective it would be convenient if we don't pick permanent Daylight Saving Time in that the UK would effectively always be using UTC.

I don't know, BST (more sunlight in the evenings) would be better, and UTC happening to line up with GMT could result in a whole load of programmers getting quite far in their career before realising timezones are something you even need to account for...

But BST would mean waking up an hour early all the time and that's its own kind of hell. Your body doesn't care for where the hand on the clock is and the standard 9am work start time is meant to allow you to get up at some normal time around 7 or 8am. I would rather have a normal sleep schedule than an hour of sunlight in the evening. Just wake up early and use the morning light if you need it.

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#75

Post by hannasanarion »

michaelt wrote: post #14
setr wrote: post #3

>The proposal would give each member state a choice from 2021: either to keep the current summer time system or scrap the twice-yearly clock changes So if you travelled vertically within a timezone, you could end up going back and forth by an hour repeatedly, depending on the state’s decision made here? Truly, a design made by committee.

Arizona doesn't observe DST, but it contains the Navajo Nation which does[0], and in turn contains the Hopi Reservation which doesn't. So you can go back and forth by an hour within a single US state . [0]The Navajo Nation extends into Utah and New Mexico, which observe DST, so this lets the Navajo Nation maintain a single time throughout.

There is actually a Navajo exclave inside the Hopi reservation, and a Hopi exclave inside the Navajo reservation, so if you travel into Arizona via route 264 in the summer, you have to change your clock seven times.

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#76

Post by Asooka »

demircancelebi wrote: post #31

Turkey removed DST in 2017 after 47 years, and it did not cause much trouble.

And Turkey is on winter time, not summer time. Istanbul is technically closer to being on its local summer time equivalent, but most of Turkey is practically on winter time. It seems the muslim world is again leading in its scientific understanding compared to the backwards west.

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#77

Post by logfromblammo »

allannienhuis wrote: post #71
wongarsu wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue Portugal is the one in the "wrong" timezone here. If you want the sun to be at its high point at noon, Spain is obviously in the wrong time zone. But you see plenty of countries around the world choosing a slightly different timezone to facilitate trade and communication with some other country (or within itself, in the case of larger countries). With most other barriers to trade gone within the eurozon…

Why would you want the sun to be at it's high point at noon? Perhaps that has value in an agricultural society, but in today's world I'd much rather have more daylight in my leisure hours (evening) than my working hours.

Because that's the literal definition of local noon.

That has value in any society that values precise measurements of physical observations.

A purposefully inaccurate time zone is the equivalent of changing the length of the meter to make your daily commute less distance in the winter and more distance in the summer, or to make the meterstick longer all year just so you don't have to drive as many meters every day. It's ridiculous for distance, so why do we do it with time?

Business hours are almost entirely arbitrary anyway. Change them instead.

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#78

Post by throw0101a »

allannienhuis wrote: post #71
wongarsu wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue Portugal is the one in the "wrong" timezone here. If you want the sun to be at its high point at noon, Spain is obviously in the wrong time zone. But you see plenty of countries around the world choosing a slightly different timezone to facilitate trade and communication with some other country (or within itself, in the case of larger countries). With most other barriers to trade gone within the eurozon…

Why would you want the sun to be at it's high point at noon? Perhaps that has value in an agricultural society, but in today's world I'd much rather have more daylight in my leisure hours (evening) than my working hours.

> Why would you want the sun to be at it's high point at noon?

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm

Nothing wrong with wanting sunlight during after-work activities, but are there biological consequences to all of this clock fiddling? (Not arguing for/against, just spit-balling a hypothesis.)

Re: European MPs vote to end summer time clock changes

#80

Post by ceejayoz »

otabdeveloper1 wrote: post #39
seanalltogether wrote: post #38

People often say they would rather have permanent summer time, but from observation it seems everyone sets their rhythm around solar noon regardless, so why not make noon = noon. During the summer months Spain's solar noon is between 2 and 2:30pm. Guess what time Spaniards sit down to eat lunch? In the summer the UKs solar noon is around 1pm, guess what time all the office workers pour out on the streets to eat lunch…

Because in the northern latitudes there is no such thing as 'noon'.

There's something like a million people in the entire world subject to that edge case. 0.014% of the world doesn't have a solar noon for at least one day a year. I'd say that's not enough to avoid fixing timezones for the other 99.99%.
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