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Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

nytimes.com

71–80 of 114 posts

Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#71

Unintended consequence: driving in Manhattan will be de facto off-limits to the poor.

Not sure why that's a bad thing. Driving a private car in Manhattan is a luxury and should be priced accordingly. Transportation options should be available to everybody, but not every transportation option needs to be available to everybody.

Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#72

Unintended consequence: driving in Manhattan will be de facto off-limits to the poor.

yes. when there is a competition for limited resources, the poorer you are the less likely you will have access to the resources. That's how it works.

No matter what you do you could never change this. You will simply create an alternative (and/or parallel) system with its own poors.

Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#74
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally you want to tax things you want less of and subsidize what you want more of. Hence taxing car traffic and subsidizing transit.

I don’t know if I like your model. I would say tax things in order to remove negative externalities, then people will decide what they want more of.

Accurately & precisely pricing the externalities of driving vs public transit vs walking vs biking is currently impossibly difficult, so you could say this is just a really crude swing at exactly what you're asking.

Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#75

I'm indifferent and glad I don't live there but why not just charge what it should cost to use Public Transportation/Subways? Why look for ways to subsidize it by taxing everything else but the people who use it?

Because not doing so is more expensive and effectively subsidized in itself because road costs aren't factored into transit but track costs are. While tolls offer scalability (more users = more funding) shifting from cars to transit still saves money and reduces traffic.

Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not with the strides we've been making in fuel efficiency. An EV pays no gasoline taxes, but has similar impact on the roads to any other car. Now, EVs are a good thing... but they do expose issues with paying for transport via gas taxes.

I heard a proposal to tax tires instead, which I suppose would let EVs and hybrids pay their fair share (although it would probably cause more cheapskates to drive around on bald tires)

Don't we levy road taxes on tires already? (albeit at very low rates)

Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#77
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not with the strides we've been making in fuel efficiency. An EV pays no gasoline taxes, but has similar impact on the roads to any other car. Now, EVs are a good thing... but they do expose issues with paying for transport via gas taxes.

Shouldn’t gasoline taxes just cover the direct negative externalities of gasoline, namely the environmental and health impact of creating and then burning the gasoline?

Maybe in theory, but it was a useful shorthand for road usage fifty years ago when recording the number of miles each citizen drove (for a highway use tax) was a rather daunting task.

Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm okay with EV's getting a "discount" since they create less pollution. Gas vehicles can pay more than their fair share towards road repairs in exchange for the damage they're doing to the environment. If there are eventually too many EV's to generate any road repair revenue, we can re-assess then. For now, the incentive structure makes sense, and should be increased if anything.

It's not a discount, it's free. And given the price of EV's, you're not just suggesting a regressive tax, your suggesting a regressive tax where near the top of the tax bracket pays no taxes. EV's already have plenty of tax incentives. Taxes need to be both a stick and a carrot. EV's get a carrot, all drivers get a stick.

It will have to be fixed eventually, but it's not that big of a problem (yet) & reworking highway funding is going to be a horrifying & colossal undertaking we'd like to do only once!

Just as two datapoints, the Fed hasn't raised the federal gas tax in 25 years, and in my state voters have rejected state gas tax increases for 28 years. Whatever new funding source is identified to replace or supplement the gas tax, is going to have many enemies.

Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#79

Unintended consequence: driving in Manhattan will be de facto off-limits to the poor.

Poor people don't own cars, but subsidize the cars of those who do. Congestion pricing helps to fix that. The book Deschooling Society has a good explanation about how the design of public roads is used as a means of social control. Ctrl-F for the section on mechanical donkeys. https://monoskop.org/images/1/17/Illich_Ivan_Deschooling_Soc...

Will the congestion charge pay for all the road infrastructure in lower Manhattan? If not, it just becomes a publicly funded place that excludes some people from entering.

Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#80

Why not charge tourists a special subway rate (++) and finance the repairs that way, instead of creating 'exclu$ive zones' of movement.

How would you even identify tourists to charge them extra? Make everyone show address proof before buying a ticket? Who's even a tourist? People living out of city limits or the state? That rules out large swathes of daily NYC commuters or weekend visitors.
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