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Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

nytimes.com

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Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#71

Post by LoSboccacc »

tuna-piano wrote: post #24

In the likely event that this is another MCAS related crash, I see only two possible reasons: 1. Boeing's suggested process (including flipping the two trim switches and spinning a wheel) does not work for some reason. -or- 2. The Ethiopian pilots did not follow this process. I see #1 as putting a huge, huge amount of blame on Boeing and the FAA - especially given their months of "safe plane" reaction after Lion Air…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauda_Air_Flight_004#Previous_...

> 1. Boeing's suggested process

so I just happened to see the dramatization of this crash yesterday, and here boeing suggestion for a thrust reversal engaging in flight was likewise simple: cut throttle and fuel to engines. that was based under specific assumption of limited testing, while in the crash the pilot had 6 seconds between the engagement and total irrecoverable loss of control.

> -or-

assuming that just because there's a process the plane is safe is somewhat disingenuous, as it is placing the blame as an 'either/or' preposition. it might be that training is insufficient, but pilots don't control the training material. and following a checklist is somewhat hard if the plane constantly pulls down.

Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#72

Post by matwood »

tuna-piano wrote: post #24

In the likely event that this is another MCAS related crash, I see only two possible reasons: 1. Boeing's suggested process (including flipping the two trim switches and spinning a wheel) does not work for some reason. -or- 2. The Ethiopian pilots did not follow this process. I see #1 as putting a huge, huge amount of blame on Boeing and the FAA - especially given their months of "safe plane" reaction after Lion Air…

> I see #2 as still keeping a good deal of blame on Boeing,

Agreed. When users of my software fail to use the software properly some large part of the blame is still on me.

Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#73

Post by dredmorbius »

jcims wrote: post #64

Narrative from ASRS 1555013: I had my first flight on the Max [to] ZZZ1. We found out we were scheduled to fly the aircraft on the way to the airport in the limo. We had a little time [to] review the essentials in the car. Otherwise we would have walked onto the plane cold.My post flight evaluation is that we lacked the knowledge to operate the aircraft in all weather and aircraft states safely. The instrumentation i…

What's the source of this and is there a URL? Found, James Fallows at The Atlantic;

https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2019/03/heres-what-was-on-...

Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#74

Post by dredmorbius »

Moru wrote: post #47
LeoPanthera wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://archive.is/Qk7PU

"Hmm. We’re having trouble finding that site." Using cloudflares DNS 1.1.1.1. Seems that does not work since a while. https://community.cloudflare.com/t/1-1-1-1-does-not-resolve-... A lot of blame to and from who is responsible for the problem, still no solution apparently.

Try; http://archive.fo/Qk7PU

The .is domain has been occasionally problematic.

Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#75

Post by blattimwind »

dredmorbius wrote: post #73
jcims wrote: post #64

Narrative from ASRS 1555013: I had my first flight on the Max [to] ZZZ1. We found out we were scheduled to fly the aircraft on the way to the airport in the limo. We had a little time [to] review the essentials in the car. Otherwise we would have walked onto the plane cold.My post flight evaluation is that we lacked the knowledge to operate the aircraft in all weather and aircraft states safely. The instrumentation i…

What's the source of this and is there a URL? Found, James Fallows at The Atlantic ; https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2019/03/heres-what-was-on-...

You can't link to these on the ASRS site but that's the primary source.

https://titan-server.arc.nasa.gov/ASRSPublicQueryWizard/Quer... put in ACN = 1555013.

Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#76

Post by [deleted] »

dredmorbius wrote: post #73
jcims wrote: post #64

Narrative from ASRS 1555013: I had my first flight on the Max [to] ZZZ1. We found out we were scheduled to fly the aircraft on the way to the airport in the limo. We had a little time [to] review the essentials in the car. Otherwise we would have walked onto the plane cold.My post flight evaluation is that we lacked the knowledge to operate the aircraft in all weather and aircraft states safely. The instrumentation i…

What's the source of this and is there a URL? Found, James Fallows at The Atlantic ; https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2019/03/heres-what-was-on-...

[deleted]

Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#77

Post by neuronic »

wccrawford wrote: post #61
neuronic wrote: post #57

Let's preface this by saying I am aware that cause of the accident has not been determined. Seeing reports of experienced pilots being assigned to 737 MAXs without prior flight experience of this precise model, prompts me to make this comment. As a passenger I expect pilots to fully know the plane they are flying and to previously have flown this exact type and model of aircraft in training sessions without any passe…

I expect them to have flown the plane, but not necessarily empty. I'm fine with them flying with someone who does already have experience with it as their first flight. (And maybe second and third.) But the idea that they can learn the differences from the manual in a short car ride is ridiculous in the extreme.

To clarify, I meant passengers. Copilots and engineers are fine and likely even necessary to properly train and deal with the new challenges.

As a daily driver of your own car, if you do own one, then it might be apparent how different they can be. I constantly switch between automatic Mercedes and BMWs.

Both have a near identical handle on the right side of the steering wheel. One turns on wipers (BMW), the other one shifts gears... (Benz). Imagine that on a plane with worse consequences than accidentally shifting into neutral when it rains.

Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#78

Post by neuronic »

raverbashing wrote: post #62
neuronic wrote: post #57

Let's preface this by saying I am aware that cause of the accident has not been determined. Seeing reports of experienced pilots being assigned to 737 MAXs without prior flight experience of this precise model, prompts me to make this comment. As a passenger I expect pilots to fully know the plane they are flying and to previously have flown this exact type and model of aircraft in training sessions without any passe…

> this exact type and model of aircraft in training sessions without any passengers whatsoever Nobody does that in a "live aircraft", that's what simulators are for (and the whole flight training curriculum, from the first lesson to being able to fly a commercial jet).

As someone who (obviously) has no experience in aviation - just train the pilots so they are properly prepared. I care exactly zero what the surrounding conditions are if they suffice.

It just looks like they didn't even get proper simulator training in too many cases.

Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#79

Post by CydeWeys »

neuronic wrote: post #77
wccrawford wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I expect them to have flown the plane, but not necessarily empty. I'm fine with them flying with someone who does already have experience with it as their first flight. (And maybe second and third.) But the idea that they can learn the differences from the manual in a short car ride is ridiculous in the extreme.

To clarify, I meant passengers. Copilots and engineers are fine and likely even necessary to properly train and deal with the new challenges. As a daily driver of your own car, if you do own one, then it might be apparent how different they can be. I constantly switch between automatic Mercedes and BMWs. Both have a near identical handle on the right side of the steering wheel. One turns on wipers (BMW), the other on…

You don't do non-revenue training flights on full-size jetliners. It's way too expensive. You learn to fly (period) on small planes that can't hold passengers at all, then you train in simulators for a specific model, and then finally you're paired up with a more experienced pilot once you start flying it for real.

They definitely did not do the proper training that was merited here, but the proper training is not and never was flying a large jetliner empty.

Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#80

Post by CydeWeys »

crowdpleaser wrote: post #30
tuna-piano wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ethiopian has ~100 planes flying around on any given day, and hasn't had a serious crash in 9 years. Presumably the skill of their pilots and maintenance crews is pretty similiar across MAX and non-MAX planes. If their maintenance crew and pilots were solely to blame, I would expect to see a good deal more Ethiopian planes crashing. Of course, it could be (and maybe even is likely) that a properly trained maintenance…

Maybe the ethopian air crews are deficient but the inferiority is only apparent when tasked to fly advanced planes?

If "advanced" means "harder to operate and more prone to fatal errors", is that really actually an "advancement", or is that a step back?
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