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Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

bloomberg.com

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Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#71

Post by albeec13 »

magduf wrote: post #68
jstarfish wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look for trims of vehicles designed for fleet use. Those remain pretty spartan.

He wants heated and cooled seats. You're not going to find that in any fleet vehicle.

Those aren't necessarily mandatory, but it certainly seems a lot of the safety tech is not available unless you also get things like that.

For reference, my wife and I bought a 2014 Mazda 6 Touring, which seems to be one of the few cars with a well-balanced mid-tier that doesn't cost an arm and a leg and still has good safety features (and did not come with heated/cooled seats).

Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#72

Post by ataturk »

4ad wrote: post #26
SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #9

Automotive EE here. In the last 5-8 years there has been a DRAMATIC change in the way vehicles are tested and released. Everyone has become much more focused on electronic features - while at the same time almost everyone is completely outsourcing electronics design and firmware. Cars hit the lots with 10 new flashes waiting. When I started, it was a BIG DEAL if you had a lot held up somewhere in Detroit because of a…

I completely despise the new consumer facing electronics in cars. Not because I find anything inherently wrong with electronics, but because I find the software/electronics in every car, in literally every car made today, cheap or expensive, to be an epic disaster both from an industrial design, and security standpoint. Sadly, I think "normal" cars will go extinct the way non-smartphones and non-smart TVs went extinc…

Toyota 4Runner? I mean, the Entune thing is crap, but the whole vehicle doesn't run off of it.

Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#73

Post by kenhwang »

albeec13 wrote: post #21

The title here, the title in the actual article, and the content of the article aren't telling the same story. Here: "Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands" Article: "Toyotas and Chevys Are More Reliable Than BMW and Mercedes, J.D. Power Finds" Article content (paraphrasing): "Lexus, Porsche top the list" "Most German manufacturers lag behind US" So which is it? Bloomberg doesn't appear to…

Bloomberg reporting can barely be called reporting. It's half-assed regurgitated content that's often inaccurate these days.

Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#74

Post by MikeCapone »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #40
kenhwang wrote: post #18

This article seems to be written using results from a J.D. Power report. J.D. Power's methodology is commonly known to be extremely flawed in that they weigh all "issues" equally. So an engine failure is the same severity as Bluetooth not connecting. Furthermore, tiebreakers are broken in pretty nonsense ways, and many suspect it's by whoever pays the most. For example, they crowned Buick the most dependable brand, b…

Reliability variation between models > reliability variation between brands. Generally speaking cheap disposable appliance cars are cheap and disposable. OEMs put much more effort into their flagship products and the products that define their brand image. Also just a friendly reminder that owner demographics have a large effect on reliability over the kind of 5+yr timeline many commenters here seem to be talking in.…

I don't know. High-volume cheap cars can certainly be more reliable than low volume, expensive high-end cars, simply because that's how manufacturing works.

Corollas and Civics can last forever.

Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#75

Post by clouddrover »

danans wrote: post #38

As electric vehicles mature and increase their share of the consumer market, it will be interesting to see how these sorts of reliability measurements change to maintain relevance. Already today, a luxury EV is probably more mechanically reliable than a mass market ICE car. Electric batteries and drivetrains have their differences in reliability for sure (IIUC, the 1st generation Nissan Leaf lacked a battery temp man…

> Already today, a luxury EV is probably more mechanically reliable than a mass market ICE car.

Tesla is among the least reliable car brands at the moment:

https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/20...

But I think that says more about the relative immaturity of Tesla's manufacturing than it does about EVs generally.

It will be interesting to see how Volkswagen's modular MEB electric car platform goes in the long term. The MEB platform designed to be used across multiple VW brands (VW, Audi, SEAT, and Skoda) and Volkswagen is interested in licensing it to other manufacturers so it will be widely used.

Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#76

Post by ataturk »

thorwasdfasdf wrote: post #25
kenhwang wrote: post #18

This article seems to be written using results from a J.D. Power report. J.D. Power's methodology is commonly known to be extremely flawed in that they weigh all "issues" equally. So an engine failure is the same severity as Bluetooth not connecting. Furthermore, tiebreakers are broken in pretty nonsense ways, and many suspect it's by whoever pays the most. For example, they crowned Buick the most dependable brand, b…

But, you gotta understand that's for the first 3 years only and the consumer reports is only for the first 10 years. Once you get beyond 10 years, any mechanic will tell you the European cars are absolute garbage. Especially BMW, Audi and Mercedes will self destruct at some point after 10 years. And those parts cost a heck of a lot more than non-luxury brands. Sometimes, they won't even sell you a part by its own pie…

That hasn't been my experience with BMW so far, but time will tell. I do think the "M" cars are problematic and that BMW overall parts quality has gone through the floor compared to cars built in the 1990s, of which I still own one. The 2013 BMW I have has been very reliable but am awaiting the day it ain't. I'm wealthy enough to just go buy another car off the lot for cash if I want to, though.

I look at cars constantly. I would probably buy a Toyota truck if/when this BMW goes to pot. I am keeping my eye on Genesis. I hate cars with CVTs, I will never own one and I don't particularly care how good CVTs become or what, I just think they're trash.

Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#77

Post by grewil2 »

I bought a plain, no turbo Volvo 940 for $1000 ten years ago. It's 25 years old now, and still is very reliable. Newer Volvos seem a lot more complex, and I can't help thinking that there's a lot more electronics and mechanisms that can break than in the old construction. Edit: ugh, I just realised I have become a grumpy old man.

Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#78

Post by kenhwang »

thorwasdfasdf wrote: post #44
ivalm wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at GP, hondas are not particularly reliable by either metric discussed. Even american Chevies rank higher.

honda is having some issues with some of their newer models (too many changes leading to more faults). But, after 10 years, I bet hondas still rank really high.

Every Acura and just about every Honda North America buys is made in USA now. But yes, their latest 1.5T engine has a tendency to grenade itself in cold weather or frequent short trips.

Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#79

Post by diddid »

I think one thing to remember that people who buy a Toyota drive it like it's... a Toyota. Cars that are driven hard will break down faster than cars that aren't, and I'm guessing the average BMW is pushed harder than the average Toyota. My wife can put a hole in a pair of nice running shoes faster than I can even wear tread off of a junky pair. Use matters, not all miles are equal.

Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#80

Post by potta_coffee »

headmelted wrote: post #24
kenhwang wrote: post #18

This article seems to be written using results from a J.D. Power report. J.D. Power's methodology is commonly known to be extremely flawed in that they weigh all "issues" equally. So an engine failure is the same severity as Bluetooth not connecting. Furthermore, tiebreakers are broken in pretty nonsense ways, and many suspect it's by whoever pays the most. For example, they crowned Buick the most dependable brand, b…

Given that a Lexus is a fancy Toyota, this doesn't surprise. I had it explained to me once by a MOT tester (a safety and emissions test in the UK that cars more than four years old must undergo annually) while my old Corolla was on the ramp that Toyota's process basically involves hardening parts from the last model for the most popular defects, with as little re-design work of the internal components between generat…

I have a Subaru beater with ~250k on it, it's going strong. Have had Toyotas with almost 300k miles on them before selling the car for ~1k bucks. I love Japanese cars. I have a Dodge Caravan, at 140k miles the thing is about ready for the junk pile.
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