It's also worth considering that the Alt-Right has been deliberately working to get more popular moderate figures like Sargon kicked off of mainstream platforms, so they'll be forced to move (and bring their audiences) to Alt-Right platforms: https://twitter.com/crislopezg/status/969225740540678145
I hope they succeed, because they'll just end up isolating themselves to their own little echo chambers, sparing the rest of us from having to hear their drivel.
Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
71–80 of 789 posts
Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
#72I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Patreon shouldn't have to do business with people they don't like. On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The biggest one for me in recent history was Cloudflare arbitrarily deciding to stop hosting the Daily Stormer. Sure, DS is vile, but at the point we start enforcing censorship on a whim instead of hardened polic…
I don't know if it's centralisation so much as personification. Patreon wants to be a a friendly brand, part of people's self-image. And having chosen this, perhaps they can't afford to live and let live. It's very difficult to imagine Bell Telephone (in their 100% monopoly days I mean) feeling responsible for what people discuss on their wires, or feeling a need to deny (say) pornographers service so that its other…
It will be really interesting to see if 2019 brings a change in the outrage that is currently directed at public facing platforms over their content policies to the actual architects of many of those decisions, which are Visa/MC and a handful of advertising brokers.
We can argue about the role of individual platforms, but Visa/MC in particular have a cast iron, long term monopoly with much stronger effects on the public than any national government does. Their editorial policies should be under huge public scrutiny.
Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
#73I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Patreon shouldn't have to do business with people they don't like. On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The biggest one for me in recent history was Cloudflare arbitrarily deciding to stop hosting the Daily Stormer. Sure, DS is vile, but at the point we start enforcing censorship on a whim instead of hardened polic…
I don't know if it's centralisation so much as personification. Patreon wants to be a a friendly brand, part of people's self-image. And having chosen this, perhaps they can't afford to live and let live. It's very difficult to imagine Bell Telephone (in their 100% monopoly days I mean) feeling responsible for what people discuss on their wires, or feeling a need to deny (say) pornographers service so that its other…
Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
#74Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
#75Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
In this particular case Carl Benjamin claims to be anti-nazi. His language, while shockingly offensive, wasn't calling for anybody to be eradicated.
I don’t know anything about this particular case, but it is certainly possible to be a Nazi while claiming to be anti-Nazi.
Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
#77There are also frequent comments on such articles saying that content creators can just seek another platform, which frankly seems like an obviously unhelpful suggestion. Twitter, Reddit, Patreon, and others are massive in scale and have a ubiquity and reach that isn't found elsewhere. Platforms that benefit from network effects don't face effective competition, and investors typically won't invest in new competitors in those arenas, because it is such a long shot to break through those barriers. We could argue that Patreon is not one of the platforms whose value is driven by network effects, but the underlying payment processors (e.g. Visa) definitely benefit from network effects. And of course, Visa has deplatformed many parties, including famously, Wikileaks back in 2010.
There are also examples of folks who followed that advice and left Patreon for other platforms (e.g. SubscribeStar) and then got deplatformed (e.g. by Stripe or PayPal). There are examples of lower-level entities like Visa/Mastercard _forcing_ platforms built on top of them to censor someone or risk being banned by them. Clearly, these privately-owned platforms are monopolies or oligopolies in a sense, holding access to large segments of the population with no competitive forces acting on them. Alternatively, we can look at them as being the digital public square, and therefore they should be subject to regulation that prevents them from taking action beyond what the law in their jurisdiction requires.
The big risk is this: when only a few entities funnel so much societal discourse or control our communication infrastructure or process payments, those entities making arbitrary decisions about who they serve has similar impacts/risks to the government imposing similar restrictions through the law. These companies should not act as a moral police and should not impose their own personal governance above what is minimally required by the law. Nor should they rely on the judgment of an angry mob to make decisions.
Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
#78I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Patreon shouldn't have to do business with people they don't like. On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The biggest one for me in recent history was Cloudflare arbitrarily deciding to stop hosting the Daily Stormer. Sure, DS is vile, but at the point we start enforcing censorship on a whim instead of hardened polic…
I don't know if it's centralisation so much as personification. Patreon wants to be a a friendly brand, part of people's self-image. And having chosen this, perhaps they can't afford to live and let live. It's very difficult to imagine Bell Telephone (in their 100% monopoly days I mean) feeling responsible for what people discuss on their wires, or feeling a need to deny (say) pornographers service so that its other…
Bell in its monopoly days was a common carrier [0], regulated by law to treat all phone lines equally.
> Or Visa likewise today -- it's understood that other people will use the same plastic to pay for things you morally disapprove of, just as they could use cash. But it's positioned as a neutral carrier, and nobody cares (I think).
Visa and Mastercard are not common carriers - they can and do discriminate.
One of the weirdest ironies in this debate is that the people Patreon is ending business relationships with tend to be libertarian/conservative types who are generally skeptical of government regulation of business. And yet what they really seem to want is regulation of Patreon, Twitter [1], Cloudflare [2], etc as common carriers.
0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_carrier
1: https://qz.com/1381708/twitter-finally-banned-alt-right-cons...
2: https://blog.cloudflare.com/why-we-terminated-daily-stormer/
Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
In this particular case Carl Benjamin claims to be anti-nazi. His language, while shockingly offensive, wasn't calling for anybody to be eradicated.
I don’t know anything about this particular case, but it is certainly possible to be a Nazi while claiming to be anti-Nazi.
Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt
#80If you've branded yourself as being politically incorrect, isn't this the kind of conflict and publicity you strive to achieve? I'm getting a little tired of people who've made a career saying what you "can't say on TV" and then pretending to be surprised when their content gets pulled.
I'm getting a little tired of people who've made a career saying what you "can't say on TV" and then pretending to be surprised when their content gets pulled.
Wait - how do you know what people's intentions are?
Your entire comment is premised on the idea that 'people who've made a career' - as in "all of em" since you said "people who ."- are in fact trolls who deserve what they get. First you know their secret intentions (making a career out of it) and second you deem them unworthy of having their content even remotely worth thinking about preserving before being pulled. You're tired, after all.
Please don't end up in a position of power, kind sir/ma'am.