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The Unified Theory of Ram Dass

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Re: The Unified Theory of Ram Dass

#71

Post by refset »

0db532a0 wrote: post #70
refset wrote: post #30

It feels important to emphasise that Ram Dass is not a guru by his own definition: Unity of God, guru, and Self is the higher truth, and if your veil of attachment is very thin, you may be able, like Ramana, to penetrate directly to that essence in the heart. But most of us, to get through our busy human incarnation and the profusion of forms we find in our lives, need guidance and help. Seeing the guru as separate f…

What does it actually mean to say that all the universe is love, and that everything has love in it? Is this more a way in which he is choosing to view things, or an actual statement of fact?

I think that the statement "all the universe is love" is the ultimate example of a "Darwinian Truth" (I hesitate to reference Jordan Peterson here, but it's another useful definition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_Q2qgdYB3I). I believe that in order for us humans to survive and thrive in life, individually and collectively, it is a truth must ultimately be consciously acknowledged. After all, we each represent projections of maternal lineage founded on an unbroken chain of our mothers' unconditional love for us. This way of viewing things is therefore primary since it has been there since very the beginnings of individual awareness. The original fact.

As to exactly how you personally should interpret "all the universe is love", well, it's a very personal thing. Perhaps the most general way to convey how that feels to me is: extend your deep inner-child maternal love outwards to encompass the rest of humanity, the Earth's ecosystem, and the natural conditions that gave rise to life itself. Like the feeling of warm sunshine on a cold day.

Re: The Unified Theory of Ram Dass

#72

Post by filoeleven »

eludwig wrote: post #16
maxxxxx wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. A lot of famous gurus are just very charismatic people that live a very nice life and don't really have to deal with the drudgeries of the life most regular people live. When you look under the cover a lot of them are abusive and really not nice people. I think there are only very few people that are really spiritually enlightened and they are not necessarily the famous gurus. I know nothing about Ram Dad's b…

I agree with you, but I don't necessarily see a conflict between someone "teaching" me (what a guru basically is: a teacher, in a way) and other facets of their personality. I've had many teachers that were superb at imparting their lessons while living with the foibles and flaws of being real people. You take what you need from the teacher and move on. An example in popular culture: someone like Bill Cosby, who I am…

There’s a recorded conversation between Ram Dass and Terence McKenna during which Ram Dass says, “My life is my message,” and McKemma replies, “My message is my message, my life is a mess!”

Re: The Unified Theory of Ram Dass

#73

Post by brianberns »

neonate wrote: post #57
brianberns wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think he was fired at Harvard then? I'm not saying he actually raped anyone. I'm saying that he attempted to seduce a student with drugs. He seems to admit that himself.

I'm afraid you're misinterpreting some well-established history. Leary and Alpert were allowed to do their psychedelic study at Harvard on condition that they only give the drugs to grad students. Andrew Weil asked to join the study and was turned down because he was an undergrad. But then Alpert allowed a different undergrad to participate (not Weil - I got that bit wrong above). When Weil found out, he wrote a stor…

That's good to know, thank you. He gave psychedelic drugs to an undergrad because he found him attractive, but may not have acted further on that attraction.

Re: The Unified Theory of Ram Dass

#74

Post by 0db532a0 »

refset wrote: post #71
0db532a0 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does it actually mean to say that all the universe is love, and that everything has love in it? Is this more a way in which he is choosing to view things, or an actual statement of fact?

I think that the statement "all the universe is love" is the ultimate example of a "Darwinian Truth" (I hesitate to reference Jordan Peterson here, but it's another useful definition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_Q2qgdYB3I ). I believe that in order for us humans to survive and thrive in life, individually and collectively, it is a truth must ultimately be consciously acknowledged. After all, we each represent p…

From what I’ve read of Jordan Peterson, he seems like a reasonable guy on many topics, but I don’t agree with Darwinian Truth. The only truth is what I experience. Everything outside of that is a game of language, including Jordan Peterson’s and Harris’s arguments.

I don’t see how invoking Jordan Peterson’s ‘Darwinian Truth’ gives any weight to the claim that all the universe is love. I would agree that you could indeed hold it to be an axiom.

You might believe that it is beneficial for humans to hold this axiom to be true and act accordingly, but this is still your subjective opinion. It supposes that humans are a worthy universal end, and the axiom remains an axiom.

I don’t know what you mean by unbroken maternal lineage. My maternal experience was very much broken. From what my mother has told me, so was hers.

What is the extension of deep inner child maternal love to encompass the test of humanity? Is it not just another way of saying that you just wish that everything were hunky dory? Things don’t seem to work that way in Darwin’s world.

I don’t want to disregard the idea of unconditional love for family and beyond. Many people can afford it. However, many people can’t, and it isn’t a truth that we must strive towards either.

There is a multitude of subjective value systems which man has chosen to live by, ostensibly, collectively and in private. Some have chosen to build empires, never having children. Some have chosen to build loving families. In neither case is it guaranteed that a majority will wake up smiling and feeling happy every day. That’s fine too.

Re: The Unified Theory of Ram Dass

#75

Post by Nomentatus »

toofy wrote: post #34
Nomentatus wrote: post #23

The most effective rape drug ever, turning adults into children who can be exploited. “I got dismissed from Harvard because I had given psychedelics to an undergraduate. We had agreed with the dean that we would not give psychedelics to undergraduates.” Ram Dass flashes a mischievous grin. “He was an attractive kid.” So do you suspect, I ask, that Maharajji had a hand in making you attracted to men because it would u…

Other than this article, I’m pretty much unfamiliar with Ram Dass, so I’m curious what leads you to believe some form of rape took place. Is there something in Ramm Dass’ past that the article doesn’t cover? I feel like I must be missing something, surely it’s not the drug use alone that has led you to believe this, right?

Ram Dass admits in the article using LSD as an attempt to seduce a male student, against the specific strictures of the University. You aren't allowed to drug people to seduce them. That shouldn't need to be said. But he still thinks that's fine.

Re: The Unified Theory of Ram Dass

#76

Post by vijucat »

fromthestart wrote: post #40
vijucat wrote: post #11

I've always been conflicted by these gurus, so let me play devil's advocate and present some things I found when I researched Ram Dass / Neem Karoli Baba a while ago: http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/dass.html Some interesting tales by Ram Dass about how Neem Karoli read his mind, ingested ginormous amounts of LSD without any effect, etc; here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb2BWvRN090 The specifi…

>sexual predators Yeah, these guys give off slimy vibes, but I wonder if this term is a little harsh. Women associate willingly with these men, and ostensibly enjoy doing so. If all participants are willing, what is the difference between predation and normal human interaction? Is it not normal for women to be drawn to power and influence?

Great point. Unless the guru is advocating the virtues of celibacy, there is no hypocrisy involved.

Re: The Unified Theory of Ram Dass

#77

Post by refset »

0db532a0 wrote: post #74
refset wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that the statement "all the universe is love" is the ultimate example of a "Darwinian Truth" (I hesitate to reference Jordan Peterson here, but it's another useful definition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_Q2qgdYB3I ). I believe that in order for us humans to survive and thrive in life, individually and collectively, it is a truth must ultimately be consciously acknowledged. After all, we each represent p…

From what I’ve read of Jordan Peterson, he seems like a reasonable guy on many topics, but I don’t agree with Darwinian Truth. The only truth is what I experience. Everything outside of that is a game of language, including Jordan Peterson’s and Harris’s arguments. I don’t see how invoking Jordan Peterson’s ‘Darwinian Truth’ gives any weight to the claim that all the universe is love. I would agree that you could ind…

> I would agree that you could indeed hold it to be an axiom.

Challenge accepted, I will play your language game :)

> You might believe that it is beneficial for humans to hold this axiom to be true and act accordingly, but this is still your subjective opinion.

I live in quiet certainty that one day, eventually, everyone will be holding this same opinion and hold this axiom to be true. I do not necessarily expect to still be around to witness it personally.

By unbroken maternal lineage I am referring to the 9 months of sufficient love and nurturing required for a mother to produce a baby human, as has happened 100% consistently and successfully for millennia to arrive at each one of us. Any love received post-birth is a bonus. I accept that this view is harder to appreciate in some circumstances and is often obscured by many layers of trauma.

> Is it not just another way of saying that you just wish that everything were hunky dory?

I think to hold the perspective I'm describing you have to let go of seeing the problems in the world as problems. Things are simply happening. Suffering is happening. Life is unfolding. At some level I'm certainly still entertaining a wish that everything might yet work out to be hunky dory, but these days I can readily accept that such a wish will only ever be an illusion. I guess that is my second axiom.

You might enjoy briefly hearing Alan Watts tell The Story of the Chinese Farmer which beautifully expresses this general acceptance of life as it is currently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OX0OARBqBp0

> Many people can afford it. However, many people can’t, and it isn’t a truth that we must strive towards

Many people might think they can't afford to love because life can grow intense and feel very serious sometimes, even dangerous, but love is free and it is always the best course of action. What else could each of us be striving towards if not a world with more love (even if only for ourselves)?

> In neither case is it guaranteed that a majority will wake up smiling and feeling happy every day. That’s fine too.

I agree, that's fine. Sadness is just as meaningful a feeling as happiness. These are just feelings.

Re: The Unified Theory of Ram Dass

#78

Post by lalos »

neonate wrote: post #57
brianberns wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think he was fired at Harvard then? I'm not saying he actually raped anyone. I'm saying that he attempted to seduce a student with drugs. He seems to admit that himself.

I'm afraid you're misinterpreting some well-established history. Leary and Alpert were allowed to do their psychedelic study at Harvard on condition that they only give the drugs to grad students. Andrew Weil asked to join the study and was turned down because he was an undergrad. But then Alpert allowed a different undergrad to participate (not Weil - I got that bit wrong above). When Weil found out, he wrote a stor…

You misread the quote, that quote is talking about Ram Dass being gay, and his friend having a theory that his guru (Maharajji) made him gay for Ram Dass to find him easier. It's a messy quote and easy to get lost if you are not familiar with who is Maharajji and why is he important on Ram Dass' life.

Re: The Unified Theory of Ram Dass

#79

Post by Nomentatus »

toofy wrote: post #37
brianberns wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really don't get it? He was using drugs to seduce his students from a position of power and influence over them. That wasn't cool even in 1967.

Fair point, I definitely should have been more charitable in my reading, I got stuck on this: > The most effective rape drug ever, turning adults into children who can be exploited I was looking to tease out some clarification, because the implication that these drugs turn adults into children and prime them for rape seems like a strange leap from my perspective. I’ll happily chalk it up to my lack of charitable read…

https://www.inverse.com/article/25716-lsd-brain-imaging-lyse...

Re: The Unified Theory of Ram Dass

#80

Post by [deleted] »

lalos wrote: post #78
neonate wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm afraid you're misinterpreting some well-established history. Leary and Alpert were allowed to do their psychedelic study at Harvard on condition that they only give the drugs to grad students. Andrew Weil asked to join the study and was turned down because he was an undergrad. But then Alpert allowed a different undergrad to participate (not Weil - I got that bit wrong above). When Weil found out, he wrote a stor…

You misread the quote, that quote is talking about Ram Dass being gay, and his friend having a theory that his guru (Maharajji) made him gay for Ram Dass to find him easier. It's a messy quote and easy to get lost if you are not familiar with who is Maharajji and why is he important on Ram Dass' life.

[deleted]
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