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We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

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Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#71

Given how trash of a search engine Baidu is, Google would likely achieve market share dominance in China within a couple years - should they move forward with Dragonfly. Complying with demands of the Chinese gov't is the only way they can penetrate the Chinese market. Search engine advertising constitutes close to 85% of Google's revenue. And unlike Project Maven, which was ended due to internal resistance from emplo…

> Google would likely achieve dominant search engine market share in China within a few years

You assume that the government would ever let a foreign company get dominant market share over a domestic one.

China is no where close to a free market, the winners are chosen.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#72
post #50

> Google’s effort to create a censored search engine for the Chinese market that enables state surveillance. You mean Google's effort to break into a market that it's currently frozen out of.

I can't tell if you see that as a better or worse framing.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#73

I respect the motivation of the people behind this but I disagree with the logic here. It seems to be a zero or none type of logic. Are Chinese better off with not having google search engine as a choice, even if censored and having only local options, or are they better off having at least some choice, even if that choice is censored? I think it's the second, not the first.

What's the difference between choice A and choice B? It seems there is no difference. Let's move onto the next logical argument. If the argument is that someone else will do it if we don't then do morals and values ever come into play?

This is one reason why export controls on technology are important. The corporations don't mind helping oppressive governments lock up dissidents.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#74
A protest against censored search could hold the door open for creative alternatives.

Hopefully this effort helps by encouraging search-oriented sneaker nets and decentralized content platforms. I think Google itself could provide the former, which would be very welcome in remote locations like Haiti.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#75

What are these people actually going to do about it? Are they going to resign in protest if they throw their tantrum and don't get their way? Go on strike? I don't think so.

This has far more chance (if still very slim) of being effective than a few dozen software engineers resigning.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#76
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why do you need two censored search engines? What would be the difference between them?

Google is technically superior to baidu in many areas, specially for a developers. It gives better answers in many subjects, not just the censored ones. Besides who are we to decide for the Chinese what is best for them? Sounds a bit condescending and paternalistic. Here here, baidu is enough for you to play with, don't bother with google.

> Besides who are we to decide for the Chinese what is best for them?

That's exactly the issue people have. Censorship. No one should be deciding what others can search.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#77
Is it not inevitable that where the ethical Code sees Injustice the corporate bottom line sees a dollar sign? I believe the correct avenue of approach for this type of issue is to offer an alternative. Simply telling your higher-ups to stay out of the market is not going to be sustainable. And given that you all work at Google, I expect there are many alternatives you could come up with. Such as banking on Google scholar to help bridge misunderstandings with China. Google is an advertising company and asking Google to not show ads to billions of Chinese people is like asking a shark to go vegan. The ethical imperative is not a part of the reward system that the corporate algorithm known as Google optimizes for. If you really want to change Google's core mission you must change what is positively reinforced. However it seems like any capitalist endeavor aimed at the Chinese market must first be subservient to that bright red flag. China is well aware of this and doesn't care if Google doesn't have a market share. Google, seen as a foreign company, also doesn't get any special perks or connections in China. At any rate, there are plenty of untaken letters in the alphabet, I'm sure the higher-ups will find one that will suit the purpose of a censored search engine. I'm sorry to seem dismal in my analysis but a Google employee who is fed by advertising dollars must also understand that the party wants to control entirely what people see hear and think. Google doesn't have to provide this functionality, plenty of other firms will and are already. I think what would make a bigger difference is asking Google to acquire Chinese companies and slowly unfold them from the inside out. I would be cautious about mixing volatile compounds such as Chinese information technology and a global tech giant, and I think efforts of both the higher-ups and the upset employees would be better aimed at ending censorship, instead of asking the bear to avoid some incredibly tempting honey. Currently the big G believes that doing the right thing must involve a dollar sign. However the argument can be made that the purity of the franchise is at stake. Of course like most big companies, you can always make two versions of something and sell the upgrade. For example that could be a censored version in China but magically with a certain USB key other results get through. But even with something that sly and sleuthy, I don't understand why Google would want to control opinion in China. The party is in the business of controlling opinion. It's like the Jesuits going to Japan and greeting the shogunate with the Bible, explaining that the character of the Bible was even higher than the Shogun. Naturally this did not sit well with the Shogun. So began a long period of ostracization and casting out of Christians in Japan. Google makes hardware, it's not like Google isn't in China, but if Google wants to get into the rich multimedia aspects of a Chinese person's everyday life, it will either be through government certified hardware, or otherwise attained hardware and software. the biggest challenge is that the network is entirely controlled by the party. Honestly though, de- censorship of a large area of China for a long enough period of time would probably have real life sociodynamic consequences. In short instead of chanting "Chinese money is no good here" how about you start chanting "mesh networks that circumvent centralized data storage for all"? As long as the party controls the network you must play by their rules. So why don't we have a fully mesh distributed decentralized internet yet? It is almost 2019, do you know where your bits are?

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#78
I have mixed feelings about this... I fully support free information not filtered by nation states, but abandoning search in China means you abandon the chance to make it a better place :/ I think developers and engineers we often do assign enough value to "progress" vs perfection.

Rome didn't fall in a day, as they say.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#79

So, 36 people (at present, anyway) sign a letter. What in the flying frig is that actually supposed to accomplish? There's nothing really actionable here; you've got the nothingness of "that leadership commit to transparency, clear communication, and real accountability." Are these people going to actually do anything - quit in protest, sabotage, what? No, they are going to whine, and keep drawing their very lucrativ…

Activism takes many forms. They’re not mutually exclusive. Your contribution to this discussion (with a throwaway account) is to put boundaries on what activities you deem acceptable.

Your cynicism is not insightful or interesting.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is technically superior to baidu in many areas, specially for a developers. It gives better answers in many subjects, not just the censored ones. Besides who are we to decide for the Chinese what is best for them? Sounds a bit condescending and paternalistic. Here here, baidu is enough for you to play with, don't bother with google.

It's only condescending in a nationalist sense. I look at my own government and how well it chooses what is best for me, and I have to ask, who is the Chinese government to decide what is best for the Chinese people?

Unless you're an anarchist, that's exactly what the government's job is: decide what's best for people. That's why you have prescription only drugs, anti-vice laws, securities. All these things exist because the government think the people are too dumb to decide things by themselves. Not saying I agree with it, just saying you would need to argue for anarchism if you were to argue "who is the X government to decide what is best for the X people?".
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