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Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

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Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#71

Post by GatorD42 »

harimau777 wrote: post #48
seneca wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm reading this as you saying anyone who doesn't support public education is a shill. If that's the case, you believe that libertarians are shills, then? This strikes me as you essentially saying "anyone who doesn't think the way I do on this topic shouldn't be trusted".

I don't think libertarians are shills in that I believe they are genuine in wanting to improve society. However, in my experience their policies tend to be built on the assumption that the government is entirely restructured in line with libertarian principles. Since that is unlikely to ever happen, those policies that do get implemented tend to assist those who already hold power. As an example, my understanding is…

Some libertarians (such as myself) generally believe corporations already have strong incentives to make non-defective products. Some products that compromise safety for cost provide consumers low cost options they would otherwise not have. Efforts to regulate such products to make them safer can cause more harm than good (by making such products more expensive and therefore unavailable so consumers will use something older or less safe).

Currently it costs zero dollars to "hire" a lawyer in a class action against a company for a defective product. If a company has made a defective product there will probably be a class action and you will receive a small settlement. If you have been seriously injured eg by asbestos it also costs zero dollars to hire a lawyer, they work on contingency. I am totally in favor of reforming licensing laws, but if you have been seriously injured and you have a strong legal case, money is not a barrier to getting a lawyer.

Generally I think there is too much regulation and too much litigation, I don't think private litigation is a solution for regulation, I think market incentives are the solution. When there are obviously unsafe products on the market is worth looking deeper to see if consumers are willingly sacrificing safety for cost.

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#72

Post by msla »

clarkmoody wrote: post #66
metamet wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If that's the case, you believe that libertarians are shills, then? The libertarian argument against public education (pushed by Cato, etc) is that public schooling is worse than private school systems, therefore we should be not spending public money on education, but rather shuffle those resources into vouchers and other ways to fund the private organizations offering private education. They advocate for starving…

No, the proper libertarian argument is that we don't initiate violence against innocent people. In order to tax someone, you must ultimately threaten them with violence. Public schooling is paid for with taxes. Therefore, we oppose it on moral grounds as improper threats of aggression against the public.

Here's a critique of Libertarianism (not the same one I posted above, in fact) with an answer to that:

http://world.std.com/~mhuben/faq.html

> If you don't pay your taxes, men with guns will show up at your house, initiate force and put you in jail.

> This is not initiation of force. It is enforcement of contract, in this case an explicit social contract. Many libertarians make a big deal of "men with guns" enforcing laws, yet try to overlook the fact that "men with guns" are the basis of enforcement of any complete social system. Even if libertarians reduced all law to "don't commit fraud or initiate force", they would still enforce with guns.

If you don't like this contract, you can vote to change it.

If you can't get enough people on board to change it and you still don't like it, you can leave.

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#73

Post by msla »

peterwwillis wrote: post #6

Democracy is doomed, but not because of advanced attacks. Autocracy/nationalism/monarchy/etc are just the natural order of human societies. We've had a good run, but so did the Greeks and Romans.

Going three-for-three in this thread, a whole page on the fact Liberalism Works:

https://www.zompist.com/liberalism.html

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#74

Post by lisper »

excalibur wrote: post #68
lisper wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, that is one of the best long talks I've ever seen. Do you know if there's a transcript out there somewhere?

Not finding one. Any volunteers for Rule 35?

I would start here:

https://aws.amazon.com/transcribe/

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#75

Post by jxramos »

lisper wrote: post #50
gambler wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good and important counter-measure, but not the only one. People also need better tools for analyzing and making sense of large quantities of information, especially as it evolves over time. Right now, all we have are search engines and excel spreadsheets, and it's clearly not enough. It's amazing how prophetic Neil Postman's criticism of computers turned out to be: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqxgCoHv_aE Essen…

Wow, that is one of the best long talks I've ever seen. Do you know if there's a transcript out there somewhere?

YouTube has a transcript feature for newer videos. I wonder if there’s a way to nudge them to process some old content.

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#76

Post by bmurphy1976 »

orbital-decay wrote: post #59
gambler wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good and important counter-measure, but not the only one. People also need better tools for analyzing and making sense of large quantities of information, especially as it evolves over time. Right now, all we have are search engines and excel spreadsheets, and it's clearly not enough. It's amazing how prophetic Neil Postman's criticism of computers turned out to be: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqxgCoHv_aE Essen…

> Essentially, he noted how computers gave people tools to produce and consume more information, but not the tools to discern, filter and analyze it more effectively. It's a profound and very important observation. Is it, really? There's a myriad of analytic tools for every imaginable domain, and even more domain-independent ones. You just need to be skilled enough to use them properly; not because the tools are bad,…

The information is coming at you regardless of your expertise. Those who don't have the expertise are at a distinct disadvantage to those who do. The tools may be good in the technical sense, but in the do they help normal people out sense they often are not. I would call that a bad situation, one we need to find creative and effective ways to remedy.

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#77

Post by thanksDr »

clarkmoody wrote: post #66
metamet wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If that's the case, you believe that libertarians are shills, then? The libertarian argument against public education (pushed by Cato, etc) is that public schooling is worse than private school systems, therefore we should be not spending public money on education, but rather shuffle those resources into vouchers and other ways to fund the private organizations offering private education. They advocate for starving…

No, the proper libertarian argument is that we don't initiate violence against innocent people. In order to tax someone, you must ultimately threaten them with violence. Public schooling is paid for with taxes. Therefore, we oppose it on moral grounds as improper threats of aggression against the public.

I don't get it - How do you fund the police? Or are you 'free' to protect yourself?

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#78

Post by mattcaldwell »

johnchristopher wrote: post #52
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which do you think is more likely to develop students into citizens capable of independent thought: a) Sitting at a desk. Not allowed to talk unless called upon. Exactly following a schedule determined by authority figures. b) Being free to move about the room. Able to choose your activity with your peers.A constructivist or "discovery" model, where students learn concepts from working with materials, rather than by…

I am not downvoting you but I disagree. A friend of mine has two daughter in a Montessori like school. One of them has a young teacher, the other a more experienced one. One of them is severely lacking in basic arithmetic and grammar and the other one is striving. Anecdata but when I add my experience and feedback from acquaintances in teaching position I conclude that the style doesn't matter as much as the teacher.

Striving for what???

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#79

Post by r00fus »

dv_dt wrote: post #56
gambler wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good and important counter-measure, but not the only one. People also need better tools for analyzing and making sense of large quantities of information, especially as it evolves over time. Right now, all we have are search engines and excel spreadsheets, and it's clearly not enough. It's amazing how prophetic Neil Postman's criticism of computers turned out to be: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqxgCoHv_aE Essen…

If only our newspaper organizations took that on more often. I would love to read a media source that just took issues in the spotlight, and just added contextual data, scale comparisons, and analysis to the hot topics.

For-profit ventures that are part of a media conglomerate or own entire media markets will never do that.

Increasing public funding for media and reinstating the media concentration prevention rules may result in actual investigative journalism as opposed to "reportage"

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#80

Post by r00fus »

matt4077 wrote: post #55
tareqak wrote: post #38

There was one idea that came to mind when I read The Second Half of Watergate Was Bigger, Worse, and Forgotten by the Public posted here 8 days ago [0][1]. The first part of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (FCPA) requires corporations to keep accurate financial records in order to not be able to hide bribes [2]. If a corporation can be compelled to be truthful in their financial records, then why can't a news organ…

Among other things, this would open the door to the government demand access to the identity of whistleblowers. It also doesn't actually address the problem. The news media, when properly defined, doesn't actually lie. Now that statement needs some qualifications: by "news media" I'm referring to Fox News and everything better. Fox, being the worst case here, actually takes great care to label their primetime 360-min…

Isn't the issue that sometimes Fox (and even the current Press secretary) will actually take Infowars content and rebadge it as news?

Just saying they can spout it as "opinion" is like allowing usurious click-wrap agreements - everyone will just click through because it's "all opinion all the time".

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