UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says • Hacker News Board

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#71

Post by tonyedgecombe » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 1:44 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #40

matthewmacleod wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that really the only choice? The UK is one of the richest countries in the world. Part of the reason for that is a long period of generally pro-business, economically conservative government. That's good in many ways, because in a modern economy, business and investment is needed to drive improvements in individual living standards. But doing that relies on a sensible long-term strategy that can be used to achieve…

The UK is one of the richest countries in the world. Yes but you are neglecting to mention the other side of this coin: also one of the most expensive countries in the world. Look at purchasing power parity and the UK doesn’t seem rich at all, it’s all on paper only. Housing, fuel, transportation etc are all disproportionately expensive here.

The problem is it is massively divided, a house that costs £100,000 in Wales might cost £500,000 in Oxford or £750,000 in London.

Politicians on both sides keep banging on about mobility but the real problem is inequality.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#72

Post by tonyedgecombe » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 1:47 PM UTC

raesene9 wrote: post #17

matthewmacleod wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that really the only choice? The UK is one of the richest countries in the world. Part of the reason for that is a long period of generally pro-business, economically conservative government. That's good in many ways, because in a modern economy, business and investment is needed to drive improvements in individual living standards. But doing that relies on a sensible long-term strategy that can be used to achieve…

it's a real shame that the concept of raising certain taxes in the UK (specifically income tax and corporation tax) has become an anathema to british politicians. We still need to get the money from somewhere, so instead of fairly increasing progressive taxes, we get lots of little (often unfair) hidden tax rises and huge cuts in public spending. The weird part is, the british public go along with this. The Conservat…

Personally I'd like to see corporation tax go, it gives an unfair advantage to large companies who can shift their profits to low tax economies.

We would be better off moving that tax back to dividends, capital gains and property which are much harder to avoid.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#73

Post by dorchadas » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 3:30 PM UTC

blunte wrote: post #64

As long as most gains and profits go to a small percentage of people ("the top x%"), no sort of retraction/austerity measure will provide long term large scale benefit. It will only exacerbate the situation. The first problem is measurement. Most current economic measurement methodologies don't consider history well enough - particularly where public funds have been used for infrastructure benefits. Using the US as a…

> As long as most gains and profits go to a small percentage of people ("the top x%"), no sort of retraction/austerity measure will provide long term large scale benefit. It will only exacerbate the situation.

Exactly. It seems common sense that the economy will grow when the people have money to spend...Which means the people who spend (i.e. not the high socioeconomic people) need money to spend.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#74

Post by sys_64738 » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 4:05 PM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #7

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #2

I'd take a little belt tightening over the youth unemployment Greece or Spain has any day.

Is that really the only choice? The UK is one of the richest countries in the world. Part of the reason for that is a long period of generally pro-business, economically conservative government. That's good in many ways, because in a modern economy, business and investment is needed to drive improvements in individual living standards. But doing that relies on a sensible long-term strategy that can be used to achieve…

> The UK is one of the richest countries in the world.

There are two parts to England: London and not London. All the money is centered in the capital and the rest of the country is neglected. House prices in London are driven up to insane levels due to the money laundering through real estate transactions for empty housing.

The majority of the working class people in England live in poverty.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#75

Post by DanBC » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 4:11 PM UTC

dingaling wrote: post #16

Regardless of the actual story, which I do feel has merit, there are examples of why it is perilous to rely on one news source: "whose family couldn’t get school meals in Dumfries, Scotland, because of their immigration status" Actually they couldn't get free school meals, just like anyone else with a household income over £16k. A subtle omission but one that makes it sound like they were excluded from food entirely:…

> just like anyone else with a household income over £16k

You've assumed that this child has been refused free school meals because of their financial status. The rapporteur is talking about the mis-application of "no recourse to public funds" rules. A family that has NRPF should still be able to get free school meals, but sometimes the schools don't understand this.

This is a family who is poor, and who should be getting free school meals, but who aren't.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#76

Post by DanBC » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 4:13 PM UTC

DuskStar wrote: post #60

RobertoG wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A recession means that not enough money is spent in the economy. In that situation, a government should increase the spending, not use the situation as an excuse for cutting the public sector because ideological reasons. Or do you think that the intention is to restore those services when the economy goes better?

We're ten years from the start of the last recession. Should spending still be high to stimulate the economy, or are they perhaps not in a recession anymore? This isn't a case of a government reducing spending in response to an economic downturn. It's a government INCREASING spending due to that downturn, and then not further increasing it when the economy recovers.

The government has not increased spending. The government has decreased spending.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#77

Post by SideburnsOfDoom » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 4:15 PM UTC

RobertoG wrote: post #35

emmelaich wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's easy to avoid austerity by borrowing off the next generation.

I know that the 'borrowing off the next generation' is a popular sentence, but, does that means anything at all? Would you prefer to live in a country with a high public debt and industry, infrastructure and an educated population or in a dessert with zero public debt? What even means the 'public debt' number when a country have its own currency and inflation is under control? Nothing at all.

> What even means the 'public debt' number when a country have its own currency and inflation is under control?

This is a question that you have to ask when using the analogy between a country's finances and e.g. a household. It _can_ mean that one part of the country (government, central banks) has created and loaned money to _other parts of the same country_. In other words, liquidity and investment. i.e. good things! This is fundamentally unlike a household.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#78

Post by DanBC » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 4:17 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #37

sonnyblarney wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There is no point in cutting healthcare spending for preventative services, for example, if those cuts result in higher long-term costs. " By that logic the government should simply increase spending 10x on disability and everything will be great! Everything has an ROI, everything has an efficiency. Canada and Germany both went through massive austerity in the 1990's to re-tool their economies from massive debt over…

I don't see how your quote relates to the second para, can you explain? Increased spending on disability won't reduce future spending; whilst selling off children's playground, say, is likely to be detrimental later.

Increased spending on disability (eg, on providing adapted cars or lower cost transport to disabled people) reduces future spending because it gets disabled people back into work and work is generally protective of health.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#79

Post by raesene9 » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 4:43 PM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #65

EliRivers wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm so sick of receiving tax cuts I don't need and will literally never notice, alongside cuts to public services that some people really really need being cut, that the Tory party will never win my vote. Well, I say never; never is a long time, but as long as they keep trying to win my favour by cutting my taxes, they can get bent. I'm not some kind of Pavlovian econo-rational robot, and I object to them treating me…

Heh, I thought I was maybe the only one. I will pay hundreds of pounds less tax in the next tax year. It seems like an absolutely pointless tax cut. It will make essentially no difference to my quality of life. In the meantime, local services that I use are deteriorating – let alone the ones that people in much more need than I use – and the police force and health service are continuing to head towards an absolute m…

Another +1 for me on that. I'd happily forgoe the tax cut I'm getting this year for better public services.

This myth that gets rolled out that any increase in tax will cause higher rate payers to flee the country in droves is really harmful, I'm happy to pay tax if it improves the services provided by the country.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#80

Post by moneytide1 » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 5:01 PM UTC

blunte wrote: post #64

As long as most gains and profits go to a small percentage of people ("the top x%"), no sort of retraction/austerity measure will provide long term large scale benefit. It will only exacerbate the situation. The first problem is measurement. Most current economic measurement methodologies don't consider history well enough - particularly where public funds have been used for infrastructure benefits. Using the US as a…

Well put.