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NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

fox5ny.com

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Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#71

Post by JumpCrisscross »

boomka wrote: post #61
rb808 wrote: post #7

This is such a great deal for NYC As the article says, they give up $1.5B over 10 years, but then get "Projected incremental tax revenue of more than $10 billion over 20 years." I dont know where that comes from but the payroll and property taxes paid by 25k employees dwarves the incentives. The most important part is it cements NYC as the main tech center on the East Coast. That is invaluable. EDIT: I wonder if NYC…

I don't know who you are referring to as NYC, but citizens of USA as a whole are worse off. Pitting one USA municipality against another to extract subsidy for what Amazon would do anyways is just another mechanism for wealth transfer from the poor to the rich.

> to extract subsidy for what Amazon would do anyways

I don't think they would. Big infrastructure in New York is expensive, financially and politically. Without Amazon's pressure, there is no way the new campus would have been developed, hooked up and approved as quickly as it has been.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#72

Post by Fomite »

cddotdotslash wrote: post #29
giarc wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That $10 billion likely assumes all new staff. There are going to be many current NYC citizens who simply switch jobs to Amazon. Therefore they won't contribute any incremental tax increase. Only if their previous employer rehires their position will a net new position be created.

I find it hard to believe that 25,000 people are moving jobs and their previous employers are saying "we're not replacing them."

Assuming the economy stays on a decent trajectory.

But even then, there's probably some inefficiency in that replacement.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#73

Post by killyp »

anonyppppp wrote: post #40
rb808 wrote: post #7

This is such a great deal for NYC As the article says, they give up $1.5B over 10 years, but then get "Projected incremental tax revenue of more than $10 billion over 20 years." I dont know where that comes from but the payroll and property taxes paid by 25k employees dwarves the incentives. The most important part is it cements NYC as the main tech center on the East Coast. That is invaluable. EDIT: I wonder if NYC…

"The most important part is it cements NYC as the main tech center on the East Coast." This has long ago been cemented...

I wouldn't say that at all. NYC is definitely large for tech on the East Coast but so is Boston in tech R&D, DC for government related tech companies, and Research Triangle in NC and Austin TX (if this counts as East Coast) are both hotbeds for tech startups. There really is no Bay Area equivalent on the East Coast.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#74

Post by andy_wrote »

avip wrote: post #16

In 96', when Apatosaurus still roamed the earth and "Atari" was a thing, Israel granted Intel 600MM$ to build FAB18 in the desert. Over a decade later, an official government report concluded that the country lost some 400MM$ on the move. Bottom line, big-corps can extort states or cities and bid for ridiculous tax incentives that never pay off. I feel sorry for the residents of NY and the bad deal imposed on them.

I don't know anything about the Israel-Intel deal and have not decided personally how I feel about HQ2 in NYC. But I upvoted your comment because it emphasizes looking at other historical deals, and not just the projections and analysis on the current deal, and would love to read more of that in this discussion. This is a very large project over long horizons (10yrs) and it's hard to imagine being anything but extremely uncertain about projections; you have to look at history.

I'm also a sports fan, and I've read about the dismal returns to taxpayer-subsidized new stadiums despite rosy promises of economic development, and tend to look askance at this kind of thing.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#75

Post by metildaa »

Krasnol wrote: post #67
metildaa wrote: post #5

Perhaps the citizens should object, I hear one of their congress critters is shitposting on twitter to that end. If the locals don't want their lives upended by gentrification, Berlin has shown a good example of how to block uninvited expansion by tech giants: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45971538

It's not clear yet if the go elsewhere in Berlin. The last location I've read about was the former Stasi Headquarter (seriously) ;)

Hah, that would be fitting! Optimizing the data mines from within the same building where data was used to expedite the killing of so many.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#76

Post by briffle »

rb808 wrote: post #7

This is such a great deal for NYC As the article says, they give up $1.5B over 10 years, but then get "Projected incremental tax revenue of more than $10 billion over 20 years." I dont know where that comes from but the payroll and property taxes paid by 25k employees dwarves the incentives. The most important part is it cements NYC as the main tech center on the East Coast. That is invaluable. EDIT: I wonder if NYC…

People said the same thing about the Foxcon deal in WI. And they have been drastically scaling back the scope of the plant, the skill and wages of workers required, and the number of them. Yet the state agreed to fund infrastructure improvements, and cash payouts to the company.. (not tax breaks). Basically, the subsidy per employee has more than doubled, and the average wage has dropped by 30%, and they barely started construction.

One of the big issues I have with these deals, is towns/cities don't have experience adding safety clauses to these, that are legally binding..

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#77

Post by panic »

rb808 wrote: post #7

This is such a great deal for NYC As the article says, they give up $1.5B over 10 years, but then get "Projected incremental tax revenue of more than $10 billion over 20 years." I dont know where that comes from but the payroll and property taxes paid by 25k employees dwarves the incentives. The most important part is it cements NYC as the main tech center on the East Coast. That is invaluable. EDIT: I wonder if NYC…

Are New Yorkers going to see these tax revenues, or are they just going to see housing prices go up?

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#78

Post by JumpCrisscross »

marricks wrote: post #53
rb808 wrote: post #7

This is such a great deal for NYC As the article says, they give up $1.5B over 10 years, but then get "Projected incremental tax revenue of more than $10 billion over 20 years." I dont know where that comes from but the payroll and property taxes paid by 25k employees dwarves the incentives. The most important part is it cements NYC as the main tech center on the East Coast. That is invaluable. EDIT: I wonder if NYC…

Doesn’t NYC have a housing crisis already? I’m not sure they need a worse one coupled with the gentrifying forces of thousands of tech employees moving in. $1.5 billion in housing or just really anything to help people who already live there is what should happen.

> Doesn’t NYC have a housing crisis already?

New York has a problem. San Francisco has a crisis.

I just negotiated a 2% rent cut. Like four luxury buildings opened nearby and sucked out our building's highest-earning renters by offering lots of perks for marginally more rent. I asked my landlord if he wanted another vacancy or to keep a hassle-free tenant--he budged.

And my experience is not that unique. "Manhattan rents dropped 3.8 percent in March [2018] from a year earlier, the most since 2011" [1].

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-12/pick-a-ne...

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#79

Post by Fomite »

School-Cotton wrote: post #50
avip wrote: post #16

In 96', when Apatosaurus still roamed the earth and "Atari" was a thing, Israel granted Intel 600MM$ to build FAB18 in the desert. Over a decade later, an official government report concluded that the country lost some 400MM$ on the move. Bottom line, big-corps can extort states or cities and bid for ridiculous tax incentives that never pay off. I feel sorry for the residents of NY and the bad deal imposed on them.

Trying to understand your position... do you think Israel, a democracy, shouldn't have been able to decide to make that deal? Who was Israel harming by making that decision? Is a deal made freely and with complete information between two parties always "extortion", if it turns out with the benefit of hindsight not to have turned out to be in the best interests of one of the parties?

They never said they shouldn't have been able to decide to make that deal - but rather that they shouldn't have made it. Presumably who was harmed was Israelis who could have benefitted from a government with more money to spend elsewhere.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#80

Post by Apocryphon »

School-Cotton wrote: post #50
avip wrote: post #16

In 96', when Apatosaurus still roamed the earth and "Atari" was a thing, Israel granted Intel 600MM$ to build FAB18 in the desert. Over a decade later, an official government report concluded that the country lost some 400MM$ on the move. Bottom line, big-corps can extort states or cities and bid for ridiculous tax incentives that never pay off. I feel sorry for the residents of NY and the bad deal imposed on them.

Trying to understand your position... do you think Israel, a democracy, shouldn't have been able to decide to make that deal? Who was Israel harming by making that decision? Is a deal made freely and with complete information between two parties always "extortion", if it turns out with the benefit of hindsight not to have turned out to be in the best interests of one of the parties?

Was the information truly complete? Extortion is probably not the best label, "rip-off" might be more accurate.
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