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Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

bbc.com

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Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#71

Post by andy_ppp »

keithpeter wrote: post #65
andy_ppp wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Greece should be allowed to run up huge debts and then not pay them back?

So banks in Germany should be allowed to lend huge amounts of money to countries with the same currency but much higher bank rate without regard to loss? 'Moral Hazard' is something I have reservations about.

I mean I see your point but it works both ways, should German pensioners pay for the mistakes of bankers and successive Greek governments... really I’m a bit playing devils advocate I don’t think the Greek people should be paying either.

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#72

Post by jwdunne »

dogma1138 wrote: post #69
jwdunne wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And of the 52% that voted for brexit? The problem I've found in politics is that politicians like to 'switch' their mandate depending on what's convenient. Half the time, rebellious MPs justify their behaviour by saying their "mandate comes from their constituents". So what of brexit? The majority of Labour MPs represent pro-leave constituencies. Now the same people are saying it's the "will of the membership" when t…

52% of Labour voters didn’t vote for leave, I’m not saying everyone in the U.K. should support remain but the overwhelming majority of all Labour Party members and voters currently support remain, Labour is an opposition party as such they should support remain or rejoin. The fact that Labour MPs had to rebel against their leader to support things like the 2nd referendum or a people’s vote on the deal does not bode w…

That wasn't the point I was trying to make. It's where the mandate comes from is fluid. I'm saying these same people have rebelled many times against what members want because "their constituents". It changes to suit their justification. Who's needs to do we favour? The constituents of the members?

I'm a remainer. I think the party should back remain and Corbyn is mistaken for not backing a second vote. But after the past behaviour of these rebellious MPs, I don't believe they're any better.

The other issue is that the majority of Labour votes come from leave areas. That's the other part of the 52% problem. We can placate the members at the potential loss of our core voters.

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#73

Post by matthewmacleod »

jwdunne wrote: post #49
matthewmacleod wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see how she can stay in her position, but then I’ve been so baffled by what’s happened lately that anything’s now possible. You’re not alone, FWIW. I’m pretty sure literally nobody knows how this is going to play out.

I'm genuinely surprised she's hung on as long as she has. We're going through a very strange period in politics.

Like the other reply says, nobody wants this job.

It’s difficult to remain neutral, but… there’s realistically no feasible way to deliver Brexit without medium-term economic damage, or alternatively accepting essentially all EU rules while having minimal influence on them. Few serious politicians wanted it, and they don’t want to step into a role where they have to deliver it. The idea seems to be to let her take the blame for the inevitable failure first.

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#74

Post by zmb_ »

TomMarius wrote: post #67
zmb_ wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true. In the EU there is a freedom of movement of workers . EU citizens from another member state need to either have an employment contract or they can be told to leave the country after six months of stay.

That is not true. The only thing they need to do is to register their permanent residence in the new country and they can't be forbidden. You're misunderstanding the law, this is done to stop people from not registering their real addresses for tax/avoiding legal action purposes. EU nationals can even vote in municipal politics in their new place of residence even if they're not citizens of that country; another big…

The right to movement of workers comes from the treaties and the ECJ decisions[0]. The basic outline is as follows:

1) You have a right to stay in another member state (host) for three months without any restrictions.

2) After three months, if you are not (self-)employed, restrictions can be placed on you. In particular, hosts will require you to prove sufficient resources to support yourself, including health insurance. If you are not employed and cannot prove sufficient means, you can be removed.

3) If you lose your job, you have a right to remain as a job seeker for six months. If you do not find a job within six months, you have to prove to the host that you are actively seeking a job, and that you have a realistic chance to get one. If you cannot prove that, you can be removed.

4) You get a right to permanent residence in the host after legally staying there for five years.

5) It is currently unclear if you have a right to the six months of job seeking before you've had an employment contract in the host state.

While I'm not a lawyer, I have used these rights myself three times now so I've read through them carefully as well as the local regulations in the countries I worked in.

[0]http://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/41/free-mo...

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#75

Post by dogma1138 »

jwdunne wrote: post #72
dogma1138 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

52% of Labour voters didn’t vote for leave, I’m not saying everyone in the U.K. should support remain but the overwhelming majority of all Labour Party members and voters currently support remain, Labour is an opposition party as such they should support remain or rejoin. The fact that Labour MPs had to rebel against their leader to support things like the 2nd referendum or a people’s vote on the deal does not bode w…

That wasn't the point I was trying to make. It's where the mandate comes from is fluid. I'm saying these same people have rebelled many times against what members want because "their constituents". It changes to suit their justification. Who's needs to do we favour? The constituents of the members? I'm a remainer. I think the party should back remain and Corbyn is mistaken for not backing a second vote. But after the…

Again this isn't about Brexit in general but about the Labour's stance on it.

Officially the were supposed to support remain, their members support remain, their MPs support remain, their voters support remain and all overwhelmingly.

Corbyn is a Eurosceptic and that's the problem the are supposed to oppose the Tories and Brexit but Corbyn does whatever he can other than gleefully dancing in the street in support of finally leaving.

He didn't support his party in opposition leading to the referendum, in fact he went MIA during the critical weeks and days leading to it, he turns down the option for a 2nd referendum which the majority of his party supports and turns down the option for a people's vote on the final deal.

He did absolutely nothing as the leader of the opposition to bring forth legislation that would support the retraction of Article 50, a soft-Brexit with the possibility of rejoining the EU or anything that actually opposes the shit show that has been going on for the past 2 years.

The only thing he did it marginalize his party in the eyes of many Labour voters.

>The other issue is that the majority of Labour votes come from leave areas. That's the other part of the 52% problem. We can placate the members at the potential loss of our core voters.

The majority of labour voters want to remain, this was always the case now it's even more as over 1.4M labour voters that voted leave in the election now want to remain.

The crazy socialists that want the UK to leave the EU in order to get rid of the EU competitive laws so they could nationalize everything and finally have their venezuela are not the core of the Labour party they never were and hopefully never will be because that would be a dark day for the UK.

In the Brexit referendum 65% of Labour voters voted remain, 68% of LDs vote to remain, LD wasn't any more pro-remain than the Labour, both of them are now at around 80% support for remain.

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#76

Post by [deleted] »

zero_iq wrote: post #34
man-and-laptop wrote: post #23

Opinion on Brexit. Hopefully of interest: I'm torn on Brexit. If Britain stays in the European Union, then it won't have a lot of power to manage her borders. The "liberalness" of Britain's immigration policy ends up being at minimum the liberalness of each of the other 27 EU countries. Germany could let in 1 million immigrants (good for them), all of them would get citizenship, all of them can go to the UK, the UK c…

You are talking nonsense. The UK has (and always has had) complete exemption from EU common immigration policy. The EU is not able to dictate immigration controls to the UK. If you have a problem with how the UK handles non-EU immigration then it is the fault of UK government policy, not the EU. The complete exception from common immigration policy of the UK (along with Ireland and in some matters Denmark) is laid ou…

[deleted]

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#77

Post by keithpeter »

andy_ppp wrote: post #71
keithpeter wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So banks in Germany should be allowed to lend huge amounts of money to countries with the same currency but much higher bank rate without regard to loss? 'Moral Hazard' is something I have reservations about.

I mean I see your point but it works both ways, should German pensioners pay for the mistakes of bankers and successive Greek governments... really I’m a bit playing devils advocate I don’t think the Greek people should be paying either.

Half a currency (Eurozone has common currency value but national banks can still set bank rates) is the problem I think. UK stayed out of Euro because of the Black Wednesday experience during the ERM I suspect.

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#78

Post by anticensor »

TomMarius wrote: post #66
anticensor wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also have freedom of movement in the US. I am unaware of any border controls between US states.

Yes but the US is a federation. The EU people don't want that.

EU is slowly progressing towards it anyway. Why else did European Army works start?

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#79

Post by makomk »

zmb_ wrote: post #74
TomMarius wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not true. The only thing they need to do is to register their permanent residence in the new country and they can't be forbidden. You're misunderstanding the law, this is done to stop people from not registering their real addresses for tax/avoiding legal action purposes. EU nationals can even vote in municipal politics in their new place of residence even if they're not citizens of that country; another big…

The right to movement of workers comes from the treaties and the ECJ decisions[0]. The basic outline is as follows: 1) You have a right to stay in another member state (host) for three months without any restrictions. 2) After three months, if you are not (self-)employed, restrictions can be placed on you. In particular, hosts will require you to prove sufficient resources to support yourself, including health insura…

In theory host countries can require you to prove sufficient resources to support yourself, including health insurance. The problem is that this only really works for countries whose healthcare is structured as insurance in the first place, like the continental European states do; no-one has figured out a sensible way to apply this to the UK's single-payer, free at the point of use healthcare.

Non-EEA nationals who are here long term just pay a surcharge for the right to use the NHS, but that's not allowed by the EU rules. In fact, the European Commission's position is that since the NHS is free, this rule should be interpreted as allowing everyone who comes here from other EU states to use it for free even if they're not working and not paying into the NHS, and that this should fulfil the insurance requirement.

There was a bunch of press controversy over the UK enforcing the rule as written in some cases a year or so back too.

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#80

Post by makomk »

lozenge wrote: post #54
matthewmacleod wrote: post #10

This all seems to be entirely moot, given that there is a slim chance of this deal getting through parliament - assuming it’s anything like it’s expected to be. What a colossal waste of time.

Nah, they're just blustering. Nobody would be crazy enough to let the UK crash out with no deal. Err... I hope...

Last I heard, other MPs so keen to make sure that the UK wouldn't go for No Deal, they were threatening to make sure that the government couldn't get the changes to law required to make it possible through: https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1061897525467234304

Of course, this doesn't stop No Deal from happening, because it happens automatically on March 29th unless something changes... but it does ensure that it will be a complete and utter shitshow which will naturally be blamed entirely on Brexit supporters by the UK press.

So that's basically the state of UK politics.

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