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Making the GPL more scary

lwn.net

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Re: Making the GPL more scary

#71
post #64
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LLVM in particular lacks many improvements done by embedded OEMs, one of them being Sony which has only contributed parts of the PS4 toolchain.

Perhaps. But GCC lacks those same improvements from Sony, simply because Sony went with LLVM instead, doesn’t it?

That is exactly the point, with GCC the community would have enjoyed those improvements.

With LLVM, Sony gets to cut down their compiler research budget, and the community sees whatever Sony feels like giving back, minor improvements without the juicy optimizer sauce that actually matters.

Personally I don't care, given I use mostly commercial stuff nowadays, but I do see the return of shareware long term.

Then MIT/BSD license advocates can consider how much those licenses are actually worth to the overall community.

Re: Making the GPL more scary

#72
Open source (~= free software) is aimed to protect the freedom of the user, not the freedom of the (proprietary) software developer.

By forcing developers to disclose their changes to MongoDB essentially makes the end-users more free, since they can then replicate more parts of the program they are using.

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Proprietary software developers use copyright to take away the users' freedom; we use copyright to guarantee their freedom.

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https://www.gnu.org/licenses/copyleft.html

Re: Making the GPL more scary

#73
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This License Means More Open Source Code You're going to get flak for this because you're factually incorrect. The SSPL is not an open source license. It might as well contain a clause that says "Thou shall not compete with MongoDB." As far as I can tell it was submitted to the OSI in bad faith.

> The SSPL is not an open source license. It seems like it is to me, it's just extremely protective of the source code owner's rights. > "Thou shall not compete with MongoDB." Sounds to me like, "thou shall not offer MongoDB, and your own custom tooling, in your cloud without talking to us about licensing fees or making your cloud tech open source."

> It seems like it is to me, it's just extremely protective of the source code owner's rights.

It is effectively impossible to follow the conditions of the license -- according to the interpretation by Bradley Kuhn and others this would require you to provide the source code for Linux under this license if you run MongoDB on Linux. Linux is GPLv2 and has thousands of copyright owners -- it is not possible for any individual to relicense it to any other license.

If you have an "open source" license (which violates the one of the entries in the OSI definition -- "License Must Not Restrict Other Software") which cannot be followed by anyone then it's obviously not an FOSS software. It doesn't matter that in theory it would be FOSS, what matters is whether it is FOSS in practice.

Re: Making the GPL more scary

#74

> "Service Source Code" means the Corresponding Source for the Program or the modified version, and the Corresponding Source for all programs that you use to make the Program or modified version available as a service, including, without limitation, management software, user interfaces, application program interfaces, automation software, monitoring software, backup software, storage software and hosting software, al…

It should also be noted that they require the "Service Source Code" to be provided under the terms of their license. So it's not possible for anyone to follow these restrictions even on a fully free software stack if any part of that stack is copyleft (for instance, Linux).

Re: Making the GPL more scary

#75
post #24

Way to run with the anti-GPL FUD, LWN.

LWN isn't anti-GPL. I don't know what made you think this -- the title is obviously a reference to people thinking the GPL is "scary" and that the SSPL takes the GPL and actually makes it scary.

Re: Making the GPL more scary

#76
post #3

I would like to make it explicit that only flesh and blood individuals should have access to freedom 0. These licenses are a step in a direction closer to what I would like to see, but aren't quite there yet. If you as a person want to run software xyz and try to make money off of it, go ahead. As soon as you open a limited company to reduce your exposure you should be hit with paying license fees. I don't get the ha…

> I would like to make it explicit that only flesh and blood individuals should have access to freedom 0. So basically, turn freedom 0 into not freedom 0. For reference, GNU freedom 0 is “the freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose”. What you are saying seems to go against the principles of freedom 0, and I don’t get your motivation either, because at the same time you don’t seem to mind proprietary s…

Rather, I'd say it reinterprets "run the program" to be "have access to the program over the web".

In other words, if I use your website, I should also be able to stand up my own version that uses my own data.

Re: Making the GPL more scary

#77
Weird thought, but I think that with this license MongoDB has managed to attack the OSI without attacking the FSF. To me, this is perfectly acceptable Free Software but so strict that it basically reads "do not use this software commercially, it requires you to open every piece of software that any of your employees have ever seen or heard of, including software you do not own. Purchase a license from us." In other words, commercial usage is allowed in the post-revolution Free world that Free Software hopes to bring about, where people have access to the contents of the computers that they interact with, and the freedom to mess with the ones they own.

The Open Source concept, however, is not philosophically based; its primary goal is to allow businesses to collaborate on building blocks, but not to prevent them from taking one of those blocks and carving it into something that they're not willing to share. Since their primary goal is to help business, they can't help but disapprove; since they don't explicitly state this goal, they have no nominal basis to reject it without rejecting Free Software in general.

I predict some eventual announcement that the license is "effectively closed source" and instead of accompanying that announcement with a specific supporting argument, they'll accompany it with a questionable written history of the OSI. They'll disapprove, or approve with asterisk.

edit: and, of course, what kemitchell said.

Re: Making the GPL more scary

#78
post #3

I would like to make it explicit that only flesh and blood individuals should have access to freedom 0. These licenses are a step in a direction closer to what I would like to see, but aren't quite there yet. If you as a person want to run software xyz and try to make money off of it, go ahead. As soon as you open a limited company to reduce your exposure you should be hit with paying license fees. I don't get the ha…

so you want a non-commercial use license. these aren't seen as open source by most people, but perhaps they'll be accepted by users. calling it open source is harming actual open source projects by making people fear adopting them.

No, I want a non-commercial license for non-human entities.

I don't care if someone is using my software in their family bakery. If anything I'd be super happy about that.

What I do mind is someone using my software in their multinational baking conglomerate without me ever seeing a cent for the work, while at the same time keeping other developers from ever being paid for developing the software in house.

Re: Making the GPL more scary

#79
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The SSPL is not an open source license. It seems like it is to me, it's just extremely protective of the source code owner's rights. > "Thou shall not compete with MongoDB." Sounds to me like, "thou shall not offer MongoDB, and your own custom tooling, in your cloud without talking to us about licensing fees or making your cloud tech open source."

> It seems like it is to me, it's just extremely protective of the source code owner's rights. It is effectively impossible to follow the conditions of the license -- according to the interpretation by Bradley Kuhn and others this would require you to provide the source code for Linux under this license if you run MongoDB on Linux. Linux is GPLv2 and has thousands of copyright owners -- it is not possible for any ind…

Individuals interpretations of this are unlikely to matter much until such a clause is tested in court. The interpretation that the license is as broad as Mr Kuhn claims may be true, but it may not be.

Personally I think that both Mongo and Redis doing this is great as it shows the danger posed when a company can just relicense a project at will, which IMHO is the greater issue here. If Mongo felt the need they could amend their license again if it was tested in court and the court ruled against them. Individuals and companies should be aware that with some of these license agreements they could change at any time.

Ultimately governance of a project matters. We have seen somewhat of a split in the Cassandra community between Apache Cassandra and DataStax. That may ultimately prove to be beneficial as a new set of organizations has started to contribute. Having an organization like Apache to provide oversight and help draw a firm distinction between an open source project and a vendors proprietary offering was crucial there.

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