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At Netflix, Radical Transparency and Blunt Firings Unsettle the Ranks

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Re: At Netflix, Radical Transparency and Blunt Firings Unsettle the Ranks

#71

Post by mygo »

darkerside wrote: post #44
dunpeal wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never seen an employee getting fired "because their manager didn't like them". I've seen plenty of employees getting fired because their manager, who didn't like them, gave them a bad review. In fact, across companies and even industries, being disliked by your manager is the single most reliable way to get fired. Anyone claiming you can be disliked by your superior yet reliably keep your job - is BSing you. Sin…

OTOH your feelings for your reports correlates highly with the quality of work they're putting out

This is so always the case.

Sometimes a business that is not a pure meritocracy may have managers who got the management gig because they’re someone’s relative or from some non-work-related connection. They may be afraid they’ll be exposed for not really being that qualified for their job.

If they have a report that produces really high quality work, they may be intimidated and hold off on the praise to avoid placing attention on the report, and on their own self-perceived inadequacies.

In addition to holding off on praise when it’s warranted they may also even write the report up for trivial things such as being 1 minute late to work. So the net effect for the report is more negative reviews than would otherwise be, and less positive ones than deserved.

Human nature is a hell of a thing.

Re: At Netflix, Radical Transparency and Blunt Firings Unsettle the Ranks

#72

Post by abritinthebay »

dunpeal wrote: post #37

> Many employees say they see the keeper test as a guise for ordinary workplace politics while some managers say they feel pressure to fire people or risk looking soft. Postmortem emails and meetings explaining why people got fired are viewed by some employees as awkward and theatrical when the audiences can be dozens or even hundreds of people. So every employee gets to be badmouthed in front of as many as hundreds…

> So every employee gets to be badmouthed in front of as many as hundreds of former co-workers, as Netflix's special parting gift?

Well no. It’s usually very positive about them and generally sad that things couldn’t be made to work.

The point is not that they were bad - the idea is Netflix wouldn’t have hired them if that were so! It’s that it just wasn’t a good fit due to misalignment of goals. Perhaps someone doesn’t want to change or just keeps behaving in a way that they’ve been asked not to.

I’ve read a few departure emails in my time at Netflix and none of them - even the one with the C level exec who is mentioned in the article - were “badmouthing” anyone.

If anything they’re quite positive about the person tbh.

Re: At Netflix, Radical Transparency and Blunt Firings Unsettle the Ranks

#73

Post by taurath »

Sharlin wrote: post #56
throwaway4195 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the exact same experience with a well known startup in SF. I got a glowing "Outstanding" review in the previous quarter. My manager left and the new manager who came in took just 15 days (with a single one on one meeting) to decide she din't like me and fired me without offering much of a reason.

I'll never understand US-style at will employment. It just seems so barbaric and arbitrary. Where I'm from the current conservative government just proposed legislation that would make it slightly easier to fire people in small companies (at most dozen employees or so). This caused the left-leaning part of the country to throw a collective hissy-fit, including several political strikes organized by major unions.

That is american working culture - it is built upon the myth that if you can't cut it you don't work hard enough or smart enough. If you aren't a millionaire or on your way to become one, its because there's something wrong with you.

Re: At Netflix, Radical Transparency and Blunt Firings Unsettle the Ranks

#74

Post by teh_klev »

I know this is verging on the "non-substantive" type of comment we're discouraged from making here, but the word "Cult" springs to mind.

As someone who's now in mid-life (51), and self employed, I'm so glad I don't feel the need and aspiration to become employed by these goons (or any of these blue chip tech companies....Amazon, Facebook, Google). Life just sounds awful despite the generous salaries (which you'll piss away in crazy rents and mortgages).

Re: At Netflix, Radical Transparency and Blunt Firings Unsettle the Ranks

#76

Post by ryall »

stevenjohns wrote: post #6

> Richard Siklos, a Netflix spokesman, said the company only fires employees for performance reasons, not because managers don’t like them Oh how I wish I could have had that. I've had an experience in the past where I was dismissed because my manager decided he just didn't like me anymore. Although I was the best performing, most senior developer on the team and was doing all the hiring and mentoring of others, it d…

You'd think that in any decent company a manager would be held accountable for firings. "They weren't performing, why not? What did you do to assist them? Show us the minutes from your meetings where they outlined why they couldn't meet performance goals and you provided ways to help them"

A manager's role is to support their team, any failure to do so should be looked at very carefully as to why they are under-performing. This behaviour needs to continue up the chain to the very top of the company structure.

Re: At Netflix, Radical Transparency and Blunt Firings Unsettle the Ranks

#77

Post by _m96l »

threatofrain wrote: post #48
dunpeal wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never seen an employee getting fired "because their manager didn't like them". I've seen plenty of employees getting fired because their manager, who didn't like them, gave them a bad review. In fact, across companies and even industries, being disliked by your manager is the single most reliable way to get fired. Anyone claiming you can be disliked by your superior yet reliably keep your job - is BSing you. Sin…

No matter how people perform on any side, It sounds a little draining to work with people you don't like, regardless of the reason of dislike. Some people aren't in control of that so they just suck it up, whereas others get a say over their lives. The question is whether they will find sufficient incentive to prioritize company interests where they differ. One thinks of that when one joins a team with a lead that is…

> It sounds a little draining to work with people you don't like, regardless of the reason of dislike.

Absolutely! Which is why people do get fired all the time if they rub their managers or the rest of the team in the wrong way.

That's why making blanket statements that "all our firings are due to pure performance reasons" is such a blatant lie.

I'd like to see the manager who puts up with someone they just personally dislike, for the most mundane reasons, every single day, for months.

The article states that upper management also encourages managers to fire employees, which makes this decision just a little easier and more likely.

Re: At Netflix, Radical Transparency and Blunt Firings Unsettle the Ranks

#78

Post by taurath »

dunpeal wrote: post #55
strangerlands wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Netflix employees, why do you accept this? Money, of course. Plus, people working in tech and making very good money are not known for "spine-straightness".

> Money, of course. If they are such solid performers, they can get jobs in other FAANGs who pay just as well. Netflix pays well, but does it pay so much better that I should put up with this BS? I doubt. In fact, by keeping up this abusive charade, Netflix is guaranteeing that many of the best candidates will never apply. So my guess would be that their employees aren't the best, but perhaps the best candidates will…

> Netflix pays well, but does it pay so much better that I should put up with this BS?

To the FAANG employee with a PHD who's been "hanging out" making widgets a 1st year programmer could build, the appeal I think is to invite people who want to show off the fire in their belly to do something.

And then they make 1st year programmer widgets, but with LOTS of passion and arguments and being told they can be fired at any moment.

Re: At Netflix, Radical Transparency and Blunt Firings Unsettle the Ranks

#79

Post by MattyRad »

It's a mercenary approach, interesting even just as a sociological experiment. Obviously a lot of people don't agree with the methodology, but Netflix isn't hiding anything; if you accept a job at Netflix then be prepared for a mercenary culture.

Ultimately, I'm most interested in seeing the results. Does having this mercenary culture increase or decrease the quality of the product? Hard to measure, of course, but if the ultimate answer is decrease or no significant change, we can probably all agree it's needless and potentially cruel.

Re: At Netflix, Radical Transparency and Blunt Firings Unsettle the Ranks

#80

Post by omegaham »

Sharlin wrote: post #56
throwaway4195 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the exact same experience with a well known startup in SF. I got a glowing "Outstanding" review in the previous quarter. My manager left and the new manager who came in took just 15 days (with a single one on one meeting) to decide she din't like me and fired me without offering much of a reason.

I'll never understand US-style at will employment. It just seems so barbaric and arbitrary. Where I'm from the current conservative government just proposed legislation that would make it slightly easier to fire people in small companies (at most dozen employees or so). This caused the left-leaning part of the country to throw a collective hissy-fit, including several political strikes organized by major unions.

Note that tech, and especially the tech examined on Hacker News, is an outlier in American business. If this were Civil Engineer News or Actuary News, you'd see a very different attitude toward hiring and firing.

Startups are quick to hire and fire because hiring exactly the right person is important, and hiring the wrong person can cripple the company. Everyone who applies for a position at a startup knows how this works, and I'd argue that if you aren't okay with this atmosphere, you need to avoid the startup scene and go work for a big company with some decent HR policies.

The bullshit shows up when a startup succeeds, and the company tries to preserve its startup culture because they want to keep growing like a startup. You then get BigCo politics with startup arbitrariness, and that's a recipe for disaster. Similarly, sometimes the Good Idea Fairy whispers in the ear of a high-up executive, and he tries to institute startup attitudes toward hiring and firing at a BigCo. This also goes poorly.

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