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Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

theguardian.com

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Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#71

Post by sambe »

I think the journalism results from this:

https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/jo...

If so, it appears to be neither original research nor a systematic review. I think it's worth being sceptical (especially given the wording of the Guardian article).

If you live in a developed country where people aren't repeatedly killing themselves through acute exposure the relevant section of the link above appears to be:

"The US EPA concluded in 2016 that the existing epidemiologic literature provided “sufficient evidence that there are neurodevelopmental effects occurring at chlorpyrifos exposure levels below that required to cause acetylcholinesterase inhibition” [11]. Such chronic, low-level exposures are often overlooked or dismissed as benign because neither the pregnant woman nor the fetus shows clinically visible signs or symptoms. Furthermore, the developmental deficits do not manifest until months or years later. Indeed, the scientific consensus is that AChE inhibition is uninformative with regard to neurodevelopmental effects in children and that the toxic effects from chronic, low-level exposure occur at concentrations too low to inhibit cholinesterase [1,9]. The evidence thus indicates that OP pesticides can interfere with brain development at levels previously thought to be safe or inconsequential."

The following paragraphs rely on this conclusion or speculate. I think it's worth reviewing those references, which I have not yet done. They are:

https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=EPA-HQ-OPP-2015-0653-... https://doi.org/10.1093/toxsci/kfx266 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuro.2013.09.003

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#72

Post by maxxxxx »

dragontamer wrote: post #7
jugg1es wrote: post #2

Organophosphates are like the primary insecticide used worldwide. How do you replace it? I don't see anywhere where they propose an alternative.

I mean, its sorta why GMOs exist. To reduce the need of pesticides that are sprayed on farms. I've always considered GMOs to be the lesser evil when compared to standard pesticide usage. Not all produce have a insect-resistant type however. So pesticides are still needed to protect certain plants.

"I mean, its sorta why GMOs exist. To reduce the need of pesticides that are sprayed on farms. "

When you look at Roundup, GMOs are designed to resist pesticide, not the actual pest.

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#73

Post by marcosdumay »

dragontamer wrote: post #7
jugg1es wrote: post #2

Organophosphates are like the primary insecticide used worldwide. How do you replace it? I don't see anywhere where they propose an alternative.

I mean, its sorta why GMOs exist. To reduce the need of pesticides that are sprayed on farms. I've always considered GMOs to be the lesser evil when compared to standard pesticide usage. Not all produce have a insect-resistant type however. So pesticides are still needed to protect certain plants.

Nearly all GMO plants out there are engineered to resist some kind of poison (herbicide or pesticide) so people can spray more of it.

The one rare GMO plant engineered to require less poison spraying nearly always does that by producing the poison itself, and having it in large amounts on every tissue. I wouldn't want to eat that stuff pretending that it's an improvement, thank you.

There exist some odd research GMO that resist bugs or require less herbicides due to some effect that does not involve producing poison. I haven't heard of any that left the lab, but I imagine it's possible there is some commercial crop of something like that somewhere.

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#74

Post by amyjess »

sambe wrote: post #71

I think the journalism results from this: https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/jo... If so, it appears to be neither original research nor a systematic review. I think it's worth being sceptical (especially given the wording of the Guardian article). If you live in a developed country where people aren't repeatedly killing themselves through acute exposure the relevant section of the link above a…

PLOS One is also extremely lax when it comes to peer review. They've gotten into trouble for publishing spurious articles using unscientific methodology before because of their lack of quality control.

They might as well be ArXiv. Except I don't think ArXiv charges $1500 an article.

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#75

Post by torpfactory »

People spend a lot of time talking about what happens to humans when exposed to organophosphates. Humans aren’t even meant to be the target of these chemicals. What about the long term consequences to the environment that is actually the intended target? How much are we losing by applying these chemicals year after year after year.

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#76

Post by molotovbliss »

Nasrudith wrote: post #32

The autism link appears very dubious and casts doubt on everything else - it doesn't map to organophosphate usage in the timeline and frankly it shows heavy signs of being genetic. Not to mention if the effects are that strong organic fanatics should show significant differences in performance - but that doesn't seem to be the case. While I doubt that even the still used organophosphates are healthy to be exposed to…

As someone with a son diagnosed officially by a professional, myself & older brother believe we are both on the spectrum but not as much as my son. He is verbal, but has quirks commonly called stimming. He hums a lot and will flap his arms when being visually or audibly stimulated.

My brother & I have read up on it quite a bit, and think that it's a combo of genetics triggered by environmental sources. There is a similar gene that is related to ADD, Bi-polar & Schizophrenia. Which we all have the first 2 of the 3.

My father, & his father were both mechanics, with my father's brother who showed the most signs of being possible autistic as well.

It does appear to skip around. I've a younger son also who was born way early in my life at 19. He doesn't show much signs of it. My younger brother doesn't either nor younger half sister.

It's a strong correleation for me personally that it's definitely genetic but seems to vary on some triggering factor in gestation or the tech environment of today's constant barrage of stimulation. The rise in diagnosis correlates to mass farming also on large scales. But also correlation doesn't mean causation.

I'd agree it's genetic, but with multifaceted triggers which is like cancer that could cause or trigger either.

I've also considered it's just our evolutionary path to a more tech geared world. I would be curious to see the rates of autism in 3rd world or outside untainted tribes.

Some reading, - https://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/science-news/2018/suspect-mole...

- https://www.wired.com/2001/12/aspergers/

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#77

Post by jlg23 »

gwbas1c wrote: post #47
maxxxxx wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there will be a time in the future when we'll look back and think how crazy people were in 2018 pumping all kinds of known toxins into the environment. It will probably be the same incredulity we have when we look at people using radium toothpaste in 1920 or the mad hatters working with mercury the whole day and going crazy.

I always wonder if there's a mindset of, "use it as long as we can get away with it." We will need to significantly change our laws to fix this.

Uhm, the idea behind of "use it as long as we can get away with it" is not the lack of laws but the lack of enforcement. No new law is going to change that.

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#78

Post by theptip »

Anyone know of a QUALY-based analysis of the costs and benefits of using these fertilizers?

The headline is quite hard to argue with ("think of the children!") but it would be interesting to know how much it would cost to use alternatives, and how much harm is being done by the current level of use.

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#79

Post by empath75 »

torpfactory wrote: post #75

People spend a lot of time talking about what happens to humans when exposed to organophosphates. Humans aren’t even meant to be the target of these chemicals. What about the long term consequences to the environment that is actually the intended target? How much are we losing by applying these chemicals year after year after year.

https://e360.yale.edu/features/insect_numbers_declining_why_...

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#80

Post by Raphmedia »

vixen99 wrote: post #26
maxxxxx wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there will be a time in the future when we'll look back and think how crazy people were in 2018 pumping all kinds of known toxins into the environment. It will probably be the same incredulity we have when we look at people using radium toothpaste in 1920 or the mad hatters working with mercury the whole day and going crazy.

Or in 2050, wondering why in 2018, mercury amalgam (Hg is an established neurotoxin) was still in significant use (except in Norway, Sweden and Denmark) as a dental filler.

Oh woah.

My mother has a lot of those and they keep crumbling and she has to have them changed. She swallowed a few of them. She also suffer from neurological diseases and fibromyalgia.

That those are in fact made of mercury is blowing my mind right now.

I'll advise her to get her mercury levels checked out.

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