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Sway: i3-compatible Wayland compositor – 1.0-beta.1 released

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Re: Sway: i3-compatible Wayland compositor – 1.0-beta.1 released

#71

Post by Cacti »

robin_reala wrote: post #70
Cacti wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would anyone go out, buy a new Radeon, install it in their computers (assuming there is room, which in ML cases is not always true), and reconfigure any drivers and all the other hassle, just to use a window manager? That's assuming such a thing is even possible (e.g. work restrictions).

Because they “would love to move from i3 to sway”? The cheapest passive Radeon is less than $50 on Newegg and I’m sure a lot cheaper second-hand, and $50 doesn’t seem like much to spend on something one would love to do.

You ignored most of my point. Many people have restrictions other than money.

Re: Sway: i3-compatible Wayland compositor – 1.0-beta.1 released

#72

Post by [deleted] »

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #34
sametmax wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine a world where Gnome doesn't support any proprietary card drivers, where VLC can't read non open codecs, where libre office can't open doc* files... Does that seems like a world where FOSS can be successful in ?

if (nvidia) { // thousands of lines of code } else { // thousands of lines of code } I refuse to add this to my code. The nouveau driver is good enough for most people who aren't buying new cards, and if you're buying a new card you should give your money to a company that cares about FOSS.

[deleted]

Re: Sway: i3-compatible Wayland compositor – 1.0-beta.1 released

#73

Post by franga2000 »

Cacti wrote: post #69
franga2000 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case, you don't really need graphics at all. It's perfectly possible to use a card with good drivers for your displays (even the Intel IGPUs are good enough for that) and do your machine learning with the nvidia GPU and whatever blob they provide.

I don't have integrated graphics on these machines, and there is no room for additional cards, and if there was, I would either be putting in another NVIDIA card, or RAID, or 10Gb or the many other things that will actually improve our use of these machines. Also, these are company/org machines, I can't just go putting random ass hardware in them because someone wants to use a window manager. What you're suggesting m…

Fair enough - there are edge cases. If you're running Xeons or the new AMDs and don't have an iGPU, you're out of luck. But this is Nvidia's doing, not the developers'. It's Nvidia who is stubbornly refusing to implement standards. I can't blame the devs who don't want to duplicate their effort. This is the price you (and I) pay for using Nvidia GPUs. Hopefully OpenCL (or similar) support catches up soon and Nvidia gets some competition, or we're headed for a dark future.

Re: Sway: i3-compatible Wayland compositor – 1.0-beta.1 released

#74

Post by loa-in-backup »

sametmax wrote: post #26
roenxi wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Particularly with hardware makers that strategy has worked remarkably well. Nvidia is actually the only major hardware company I know of (other than Apple who sorta don't count) who doesn't have a good open source driver. That isn't an ideological position, just all the other majors seem to support linux as a first class citizen across all product categories. There is also a difference between data exchange (cod…

Yet, it seems that the only very popular FOSS projects are the ones playing well with proprietary. Actually the most popular distrib is Ubuntu, precisely because of this.

This comment is tautologic

Re: Sway: i3-compatible Wayland compositor – 1.0-beta.1 released

#75

Post by pjmlp »

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #34
sametmax wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine a world where Gnome doesn't support any proprietary card drivers, where VLC can't read non open codecs, where libre office can't open doc* files... Does that seems like a world where FOSS can be successful in ?

if (nvidia) { // thousands of lines of code } else { // thousands of lines of code } I refuse to add this to my code. The nouveau driver is good enough for most people who aren't buying new cards, and if you're buying a new card you should give your money to a company that cares about FOSS.

The beauty of choice is that it goes both ways.

Re: Sway: i3-compatible Wayland compositor – 1.0-beta.1 released

#76

Post by arghwhat »

Cacti wrote: post #59
arghwhat wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your pick. Nvidia are assholes, though, and should not be supported directly at any cost. They need to learn to grow up. Also, what the hell are you using a couple thousand dollars in consumer nVidia GPUs for on a Linux system?

Machine learning, where NVIDIA hardware and proprietary drivers is currently non-negotiable. It sucks but it is reality, and refusing to support their drivers in other software because NVIDIA doesn't support FOSS will accomplish absolutely nothing. Except people not using your software.

Why are you rendering your desktop through a compute GPU? Connect screens to the Intel HD outputs.

Refusing to support nvidia accomplishes that their shitty approach will die. They will then have to pick between either dropping linux support (which they don't want exactly due to ML and stuff), or having to do shit right.

IIRC, gnome is also dropping eglstream support (nvidia crap), leaving nothing supporting it.

Re: Sway: i3-compatible Wayland compositor – 1.0-beta.1 released

#77

Post by arghwhat »

Cacti wrote: post #69
franga2000 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case, you don't really need graphics at all. It's perfectly possible to use a card with good drivers for your displays (even the Intel IGPUs are good enough for that) and do your machine learning with the nvidia GPU and whatever blob they provide.

I don't have integrated graphics on these machines, and there is no room for additional cards, and if there was, I would either be putting in another NVIDIA card, or RAID, or 10Gb or the many other things that will actually improve our use of these machines. Also, these are company/org machines, I can't just go putting random ass hardware in them because someone wants to use a window manager. What you're suggesting m…

That's a unique case: a non-server xeon workstation.

However, it's up to nvidia to fix. No one intends to support their lazy eglstream suggestion for countless reasons, and only gnome is left, which IIRC intends to drop it too.

ML is a good example of why not putting up with them will work. They need that customer base. If all support is dropped, they'll need to act.

Re: Sway: i3-compatible Wayland compositor – 1.0-beta.1 released

#78

Post by josefx »

arghwhat wrote: post #77
Cacti wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have integrated graphics on these machines, and there is no room for additional cards, and if there was, I would either be putting in another NVIDIA card, or RAID, or 10Gb or the many other things that will actually improve our use of these machines. Also, these are company/org machines, I can't just go putting random ass hardware in them because someone wants to use a window manager. What you're suggesting m…

That's a unique case: a non-server xeon workstation. However, it's up to nvidia to fix. No one intends to support their lazy eglstream suggestion for countless reasons, and only gnome is left, which IIRC intends to drop it too. ML is a good example of why not putting up with them will work. They need that customer base. If all support is dropped, they'll need to act.

> No one intends to support their lazy eglstream suggestion for countless reasons,

So first Wayland came for the networked UIs because "X forwarding is shit" then they wayland users came for NVIDIA because "we don't like how they do it". I can see myself booting into a Windows 10 desktop in five to ten years because pretty much everything I relied on on Linux has been killed off by then, oh whait that is GNOME 10, it just looks and acts just as user hostile as Windows.

Excuse me while I seat myself into a corner with my trusty X window based software that at least does what I need it to do half the time.

Re: Sway: i3-compatible Wayland compositor – 1.0-beta.1 released

#79

Post by monocasa »

imtringued wrote: post #41
roenxi wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Particularly with hardware makers that strategy has worked remarkably well. Nvidia is actually the only major hardware company I know of (other than Apple who sorta don't count) who doesn't have a good open source driver. That isn't an ideological position, just all the other majors seem to support linux as a first class citizen across all product categories. There is also a difference between data exchange (cod…

What about ARM GPUs or PowerVR?

PowerVR is basically dead FWIW.

Re: Sway: i3-compatible Wayland compositor – 1.0-beta.1 released

#80

Post by arghwhat »

josefx wrote: post #78
arghwhat wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a unique case: a non-server xeon workstation. However, it's up to nvidia to fix. No one intends to support their lazy eglstream suggestion for countless reasons, and only gnome is left, which IIRC intends to drop it too. ML is a good example of why not putting up with them will work. They need that customer base. If all support is dropped, they'll need to act.

> No one intends to support their lazy eglstream suggestion for countless reasons, So first Wayland came for the networked UIs because "X forwarding is shit" then they wayland users came for NVIDIA because "we don't like how they do it". I can see myself booting into a Windows 10 desktop in five to ten years because pretty much everything I relied on on Linux has been killed off by then, oh whait that is GNOME 10, it…

NVIDIA being assholes is nothing new. Wayland is just their newest way to try to screw open source development in order to stay as proprietary as possible.

> Excuse me while I seat myself into a corner with my trusty X window based software that at least does what I need it to do half the time.

Enjoy your root escalation exploits and complete lack of any usable security model, then. Oh, and soon, complete obsolescence. I'll enjoy my out-of-the box wayland setup.

Oh, and yes, X forwarding is total utter crap. Wayland will have remote capabilities, but X forwarding was never a good idea. It was okay 20 years ago, but it doesn't make sense at any level today.

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