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China's GPS 'rival' Beidou

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71–80 of 80 posts

Re: China's GPS 'rival' Beidou

#71

>... even precision missiles. So if GPS were to be jammed, or disabled by a hack into the ground control systems -- PLA missiles would still work just fine. Hmm.

GPS is one of the many many component inside modern missile to determine location. An IMU ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_measurement_unit ) being usually the main component and GPS being just there for error correction.

GPS is too easy to jam, no serious military application would use GPS exclusively.

Re: China's GPS 'rival' Beidou

#72
post #60
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not about “more control”. The first beidou was two way mainly because they need some kind of satellite phone functionality.

That what was said to the populace. In reality, first gen beidou sats already had functionality to provide atomic clock signal and advanced station keeping. The accuracy was quite lower than from leo GPS sats, but still. The explanation that beidou 1 was a glorified, super expensive satellite pager, with navigation functionality as an afterthought does not hold water. This "explanation" came much later than the comme…

Looks like some misunderstanding here. No one ever claimed Beidou I was developed as a satellite pager.

The reason Beidou I needs two way transmission is they wanted add pager functionality to its navigation functionality. The party wants more control has nothing to do with Beidou I's two way transmission mechanism. When Beidou I was developed, it's mostly used by military. The party doesn't need "more control" there.

Re: China's GPS 'rival' Beidou

#73
post #72
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That what was said to the populace. In reality, first gen beidou sats already had functionality to provide atomic clock signal and advanced station keeping. The accuracy was quite lower than from leo GPS sats, but still. The explanation that beidou 1 was a glorified, super expensive satellite pager, with navigation functionality as an afterthought does not hold water. This "explanation" came much later than the comme…

Looks like some misunderstanding here. No one ever claimed Beidou I was developed as a satellite pager. The reason Beidou I needs two way transmission is they wanted add pager functionality to its navigation functionality. The party wants more control has nothing to do with Beidou I's two way transmission mechanism. When Beidou I was developed, it's mostly used by military. The party doesn't need "more control" there…

Military use??? You understand what two way transmission means during a conflict? An enemy tunes an antiradiation missile on your frequency, and voila...

China already had military digital satellite coms working by late nineties. For them, it was of even lesser utility.

Re: China's GPS 'rival' Beidou

#74
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "We are likely to see an increased bifurcation of the world into two camps - 'pro-China' and 'pro-US'", says Blaine Curcio, founder of Orbital Gateway Consulting Why just two? If our stranglehold on the world breaks, the EU and Russia are easily capable of carving out their sphere of influence. People really underestimate how populous and wealthy and powerful the EU is. It's strange how the narrative changes in suc…

The EU is wealthy but has limited power projection. Only France and the UK can realistically be considered great powers, and even then not on the scale of the US, China, or Russia.

France and the UK? What about Germany?

Re: China's GPS 'rival' Beidou

#75
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so in the event of a war the DOD can disable the civilian signal as the M code will work standalone, hence a third party nation cannot rely on GPS. They also had the option in older satellites of turning on selective availability, which would degrade the civilian location service from 5-meter to 100-meter accuracy without affecting the military service. Purportedly newer GPS satellites don't have the option anymore…

> Purportedly newer GPS satellites don't have the option anymore. That does sound suspiciously like something the military would want you to believe

It's worth mentioning here that SA-less Block IIF (and newer) satellites came after "codeless" and "semi-codeless" techniques were publicly-known. Those allow a receiver to use the encrypted P(Y) code to obtain a precise position fix without any knowledge of the encryption key.

There are probably other, newer ways to prevent an adversary to use the GPS signal, but there is little reason to doubt that SA is gone.

Re: China's GPS 'rival' Beidou

#76
post #74
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU is wealthy but has limited power projection. Only France and the UK can realistically be considered great powers, and even then not on the scale of the US, China, or Russia.

France and the UK? What about Germany?

In term of military power mostly I guess. It's the only EU nations with nuclear weapons, aircrafts carrier, nuclear submarines, ...

Re: China's GPS 'rival' Beidou

#77
post #73
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like some misunderstanding here. No one ever claimed Beidou I was developed as a satellite pager. The reason Beidou I needs two way transmission is they wanted add pager functionality to its navigation functionality. The party wants more control has nothing to do with Beidou I's two way transmission mechanism. When Beidou I was developed, it's mostly used by military. The party doesn't need "more control" there…

Military use??? You understand what two way transmission means during a conflict? An enemy tunes an antiradiation missile on your frequency, and voila... China already had military digital satellite coms working by late nineties. For them, it was of even lesser utility.

Perhaps some background info can help. Beidou I was developed in early 2000s. And at that time Chinese military satellite wasn’t advanced at all. Even though beidou I is vulnerable to anti radiation missles, it’s the best they have and at least it worked well for purposes such as border patrol and terrain survey.

My point is that many things in China may be explained by the party wanting more control, but two way transmission of beidou I is not one of them.

Re: China's GPS 'rival' Beidou

#78
post #11

So China has the technology to destroy satellites [1], and is developing alternatives to US satellites. Does this make anyone else nervous? Maybe Trump has a point when he says we should stop letting China steal our technology. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Chinese_anti-satellite_mi...

>So China has the technology to destroy satellites [ Any country that can launch a satellite has a technology to destroy one. It's called a missile. You don't even need to go to orbit - just intersect the orbit of the target and dump a bucket of nails in its path.

You don't even need much of a missile, if you happen to have an air force; back in 1985 the USAF did a test in which the pilot of an F-15 shot down a satellite, from an altitude of 38,000 feet.

Re: China's GPS 'rival' Beidou

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States actually does have the ability to selectively degrade signals. I don't know enough to comment on this capability in more detail (another comment seems to indicate that it is through jamming). A relevant excerpt (from 2000) is below: > Additionally, we have demonstrated the capability to selectively deny GPS signals on a regional basis when our national security is threatened. https://www.faa.gov/abo…

Selective availability was defeated a long time ago which is one of the motivations for Clinton formally turning it off in 2000. Also while I'm sure that the US military is fully capable of turning off GPS satellites however they want the efficacy of this is probably limited considering the coverage of GLONASS + EGNOS.

The point of that article is that a main justification for turning off selective availability was that the US could still deny access in certain geographic areas. Selective denial != selective availability.

Re: China's GPS 'rival' Beidou

#80
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France and the UK? What about Germany?

In term of military power mostly I guess. It's the only EU nations with nuclear weapons, aircrafts carrier, nuclear submarines, ...

Correct. Germany is an economic powerhouse, but lacks military might and therefore power projection.
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