Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court • Hacker News Board

Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#71

Post by chrisco255 » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 3:16 AM UTC

dev_dull wrote: post #48

mothers wrote: post #39

To those who have a problem with Harvard's alleged discrimination. Do you think female-only schools should exist? In addition, would you agree with an admission policy that only uses SAT and AP scores? Grades inherently are subjective and can unfairly be given on the basis of race on the K-12 level, so that's helpful. Harvard should just model China and make the SAT the only criterion. If there are too many people wi…

Goodhart's Law: “When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.” SATs will quickly become one of the poorest indicators for success.

Not sure that holds up under all cases. Grades, as an example, are both measures and targets.

Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#72

Post by gwbas1c » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 3:22 AM UTC

lazyant wrote: post #13

If it was up to me, for university admissions there would be a public clear and objective scoring system, based for example only on grades and then use a lottery system weighted inversely by income. No more essays and subjective values, silly extracurriculars or race involved (it's already somehow accounted for in the income).

That kills diversity because you only admit people who game the system. It also harms Harvard, because the value of their education comes from experiencing a very diverse crowd.

Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#73

Post by gwbas1c » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 3:23 AM UTC

What is diversity? In a place so highly desirable, does that mean that discrimination is needed to preserve diversity?

Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#74

Post by mturmon » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 3:27 AM UTC

zone411 wrote: post #35

There is some more information in this document: https://samv91khoyt2i553a2t1s05i-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-... One interesting thing I saw in there was the huge advantage that the legacy applicants and the kids of the staff get https://twitter.com/LechMazur/status/1053290170315927552 . The exact racial advantages/disadvantages are also calculated - they are large (Table 5.1N but it doesn't include Asian applicants)…

I have heard anecdotally that legacies get a huge bump, and this seems to quantify it. Like 6x.

It’s not like they aren’t already considering a lot of factors besides some kind of test metric.

Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#75

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 3:30 AM UTC

spangry wrote: post #45

I thought the ACLU had a rather interesting take on this issue: "Make no mistake: A lawsuit against Harvard that's purported to represent the interests of Asian-Americans would, if successful, primarily benefit white students. #DefendDiversity" https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1051626960537808898

[deleted]

Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#76

Post by munchbunny » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 3:32 AM UTC

qubax wrote: post #65

On the one hand, harvard and the left repeatedly say we should live in a colorblind society. Race is not important and it isn't even real. It is a social construct of no importance to who the person is. They tell us only raicsts are obsessed with race and only racists see color. On the other hand, harvard and the left are obsessed with race. So is harvard and the left racist? Aren't they supposed to be colorblind and…

On the one hand, harvard and the left repeatedly say we should live in a colorblind society. Race is not important and it isn't even real. It is a social construct of no importance to who the person is. They tell us only raicsts are obsessed with race and only racists see color.

That's a MASSIVE straw man. Harvard won't argue that, and nobody who studies race and equality issues will argue that.

I'm assuming that you are looking for actual discourse on the topic. The issue of color-blindness vs. race consciousness is pretty well-trodden territory in the context of studying racism. If you google those words, you'll find plenty of literature about it. I just tried it and there are several good discussions of the topic in the first couple pages.

The short version is that colorblindness doesn't address the "rich get richer" effect, so if you want to close the gap, you're going to have to look at ways to create catch-up mechanisms.

If we are all humans and equal, why does race matter? Who cares if the humans attending harvard are all white or all asian or all black? We are humans right?

You're assuming that the default behavior is fair. That's fundamentally not true. If you're looking for the actual argument made by Harvard and "the left," then this is it: the default is unfair, and the goal is to make it fair.

Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#77

Post by xor_ax_ax » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 3:32 AM UTC

Does it still include a photograph? When I was a kid, my parents avoided such private schools and similar institutions because of the dog-whistle of anti-Semitism and other genetic pedigree bias it likely signals.

Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#78

Post by lalaland1125 » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 3:33 AM UTC

jorblumesea wrote: post #50

curious_fella2 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I don't like what they seem to be doing, but Harvard is a private university - they should be able to recruit who they want to based on their own criteria" How is this argument different than supporting a private restaurant not serving e.g. Chinese people since they "are a private company that should be able to serve whom they want based on their own criteria?"

How is what Harvard is doing supported by that example? They are giving preferential treatment to certain groups or ethnicities, not actively discriminating against any certain group. If you went to a restaurant and someone that was in line after you got seated before simply because of their ethnicity, that's not the same as not being served at all right?

If there are a limited number of seats it's exactly the same as not being served at all.

Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#79

Post by beambot » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 3:35 AM UTC

lazyant wrote: post #13

If it was up to me, for university admissions there would be a public clear and objective scoring system, based for example only on grades and then use a lottery system weighted inversely by income. No more essays and subjective values, silly extracurriculars or race involved (it's already somehow accounted for in the income).

Seems like an easy system to game for the ultra-rich: you can make income be zero for a couple years. "Wealth" is probably more compelling.

Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#80

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 3:36 AM UTC

jorblumesea wrote: post #50

curious_fella2 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I don't like what they seem to be doing, but Harvard is a private university - they should be able to recruit who they want to based on their own criteria" How is this argument different than supporting a private restaurant not serving e.g. Chinese people since they "are a private company that should be able to serve whom they want based on their own criteria?"

How is what Harvard is doing supported by that example? They are giving preferential treatment to certain groups or ethnicities, not actively discriminating against any certain group. If you went to a restaurant and someone that was in line after you got seated before simply because of their ethnicity, that's not the same as not being served at all right?

[deleted]