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Wikileaks dumps 400,000 more files

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Re: Wikileaks dumps 400,000 more files

#71

Post by oogoog »

justinweiss wrote: post #51
lefstathiou wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know quite a few people in the special forces on the ground all over the middle east and you'd surprised how many adamently believe that if Americans did indeed know "the truth", we would already be at war with half of the middle east and possibly Russia. I think assuming that the American public has an aversion to war is a dangerous one. Remember that full transparency is a double edged sword. One the one hand peo…

Ok. But if that's what's actually happening, we need to have that conversation. Keeping these things secret will lead to nothing but waste, corruption, and misunderstanding.

I'm not sure how that solves the op's problem. The point is democracies and crowds often make bad decisions based on popularity, status, pride, anger, ignorance, whats good for the majority (at the expense of a minority), etc.

Heh, not that I have a solution. I'm just saying the OP has a valid point and crowd rule isn't necessarily going to lead to the best solution.

Re: Wikileaks dumps 400,000 more files

#72

Post by sprout »

viggity wrote: post #70
rbanffy wrote: post #38

Just as a counterpoint, risking godwining this topic: What would you think if we were in mid-1944 and these documents detailed the operations of Nazi Germany and listed several people who helped German occupation forces? The morality of this war is at the core of this discussion. If you feel this war is immoral, then those who helped occupation forces to commit war crimes deserve no sympathy. If, however, you feel th…

It is no where near the middle. The nazis intentionally and explicitly murdered some 12 to 14 MILLION people in various death camps. The US has done no such thing and has only ever proposed to leave the Iraqis alone and under a democratic government that they can themselves control. The US has only stayed so long as to ensure that said government is free of corruption and coercion and able to protect its citizens fro…

Flip it around then. I submit that just as the American invaders cannot reasonably be compared to the Nazis, neither can the insurgents.

It's hard to say either side in this conflict has the moral high ground, so it's equally hard to say that a move to the detriment of one side or the other is amoral (unless it's clear that a move is to the detriment of both sides.)

Re: Wikileaks dumps 400,000 more files

#73

Post by Andrew_Quentin »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #40
tptacek wrote: post #35

This is a referendum on the legality and morality of the Iraq war, hiding behind the word "wiki".

I agree it's a technology and HN story, but as you can see the conversation is much more loaded around the emotional content of the leaks than the technology involved. (Or the implication of such technology on modern society, which I find interesting) Without getting into too much naval-gazing, when I visit a topic with highly emotional posts, I always try to turn the subject around. See how it plays when it's a caus…

What is so sad about people engaging in a conversation? I would rather individuals give their own unfettered opinion and communicate to each other their agreement and disagreement than some hand holding by some benevolent start up who is going to direct us onto the way we should think or even direct our conversation.

People are complex and so is their communication with each other. You can not just follow a script as that limits communication based on whatever some benevolent start up finds correct. While currently, in the mids of chaos and confusion, understanding is reached, for people are communicating and if nothing else leaning how things are viewed from other people.

Re: Wikileaks dumps 400,000 more files

#74

Post by oogoog »

ajays wrote: post #56
maukdaddy wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that people's lives will be in danger after releasing the information is even more reason to not engage in that behavior in the first place WTF is wrong with you? Would you feel differently if YOUR name was on the list?

Lets flip this around. We can all agree that if we knew in 2003 - 2009 that the gory details of the occupation would come out, many of the abuses would not have happened? So now that we know that sites like WikiLeaks will leak such information, maybe (just maybe) current and future abuses will be reduced? Isn't that a positive thing from these leaks?

I think this is a good point. However, its not clear to me that this would have deterred anyone. Consider Darfur.

Re: Wikileaks dumps 400,000 more files

#75

Post by sprout »

hugh3 wrote: post #22
gloob wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the same sort of reasoning used by those who claim that America is responsible for September 11, 2001 because they spent the last 60 years dicking around in the Middle East. The second claim is true, and America bears responsibility for said dicking around. The first part is not - the blame falls on those who hijacked the planes and crashed them into things. People are not dying because Wikileaks releases stu…

Not really. To take politics out of the equation, suppose this was a leak of all the documents from the Witness Protection Program. Now all the information about everyone who has ever informed on anyone within the US criminal underworld is out in the open. If they get shot then yes , the moral responsibility for that shooting lies with the guy with the gun, but that doesn't absolve the person who released the informa…

In order to determine the morality of the hypothetical shooting, you must establish who morally deserves sovereignty over Iraq and Afghanistan. (An inherently political question.) If America deserves sovereignty, you're right, it's like releasing documents from the WPP. If the insurgents have sovereignty however, it's akin to releasing documents detailing a drug smuggling ring.

So in short, you ask us to take politics out of the equation, and quietly assume your own politics as a given value.

Re: Wikileaks dumps 400,000 more files

#76

Post by wnoise »

ajays wrote: post #59
jeebusroxors wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are headed quickly into politics here but I'm ignorant and genuinely curious. Do we have evidence that the search for biological weapons was false?

Biological weapons are easy to make. Remember Aum Shinrikyo in Japan in the 90s? Or Jonestown? It would be a fair assumption that half the world's militaries have some sort of biological weapons. Granted, many of them won't be able to put them on missiles and launch them. So claiming that the presence of bio-weapons in Iraq is some sort of a justification for invasion is just plain silly. If this was all that was nee…

Neither of those examples are biological weapons. Aum Shinrikyo used sarin gas, a chemical weapon, in the Tokyo subway attack. Jonestown used cyanide, also chemical, but this wasn't at all weaponized.

In any case, the argument was based on the umbrella term "weapons of mass destruction".

You're right that as a justification, it falls far too short, even had it been true.

Re: Wikileaks dumps 400,000 more files

#77

Post by Daishiman »

Adam503 wrote: post #67
Daishiman wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not. Stop repeating this unjustified phrase. Innocent people are dying because this material is unavailable and God knows what the Pentagon has been up to.

Innocent people die every day. Should we all stop driving cars because if the risk of car wrecks. Should we all stay indoors when there are clouds overhead because there is a risk of innocent lives being lost when there are clouds overhead to lightning strikes?

If your argument is actually serious, it's in fact supporting my thesis since then, innocents will day every day, so we might as well release all the incriminating documents of the Pentagon and go about with the innocent just as dead as before, except that we'd now know the truth.

Seriously, how many people are completely unable to grasp the fact that you're complaining about, what, at most dozen people (and not even, because according to Wikileaks, there are no names in the war logs), when the American military forces have essentially forced the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians in Afghanistan and Irak? And now you want to claim it's anywhere near comparable?

Again, really? This would not even be necessary in the first place if the criminals in Washington hadn't started a war based on lies. Stop making up bad guys and realize who put you in this position in the first place and that the worst thing is that it takes an independent NGO (which is putting the livelihood of its members at much greater stake than any potential victims the Pentagon might claim) to call out their bullshit, rather than an informed American citizenry.

Re: Wikileaks dumps 400,000 more files

#78

Post by Daishiman »

viggity wrote: post #70
rbanffy wrote: post #38

Just as a counterpoint, risking godwining this topic: What would you think if we were in mid-1944 and these documents detailed the operations of Nazi Germany and listed several people who helped German occupation forces? The morality of this war is at the core of this discussion. If you feel this war is immoral, then those who helped occupation forces to commit war crimes deserve no sympathy. If, however, you feel th…

It is no where near the middle. The nazis intentionally and explicitly murdered some 12 to 14 MILLION people in various death camps. The US has done no such thing and has only ever proposed to leave the Iraqis alone and under a democratic government that they can themselves control. The US has only stayed so long as to ensure that said government is free of corruption and coercion and able to protect its citizens fro…

It's nowhere in the middle, but you're delusional if you can claim that there was any good will in this war. It was a war fabricated and perpetuated on lies, and those who started it deserve as much as any war criminal responsible for the deaths of thousands, which I would hope is more than what any serial killer rotting away in an American prison gets.

Re: Wikileaks dumps 400,000 more files

#79

Post by Daishiman »

barrkel wrote: post #54
jeebusroxors wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are headed quickly into politics here but I'm ignorant and genuinely curious. Do we have evidence that the search for biological weapons was false?

The idea that there were WMDs in development / ready to use at the drop of a hat was part of the motivation to go to war at the decision-maker level, but not the core reason, I think. It was more a "look out, he has a gun - rush him" kind of snow-job to get in there, with the idea that something could be found to justify that approach. The bigger idea was a domino concept; that a remade Iraq would be a beacon of demo…

No, it was a bullshit war fabricated and developed. You can look up the PNAC's detailed history where they were just aching for excuses to go to war with Iraq and other Middle Eastern states.

The disputability of the intentions of the war is something only American citizens question. Everyone else knew from the start that there was nothing good in it.

Just for a start, Google the matter for a few minutes and you'll see that the supposed evidence for the war was completely fabricated, and the Security Council received outright lies from the American representatives.

Re: Wikileaks dumps 400,000 more files

#80

Post by gonk »

viggity wrote: post #2

I understand combing through this material and releasing information about illegal or highly suspect activities. But a carte blanche release of all this classified material is going to get even more innocent people killed.

A carte blanche war operation is a far worse thing to support. If you want the American War Machine to continue committing its crimes, by all means ignore this release.
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