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Amazon says wage hike ‘more than compensates’ for loss of bonuses

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Re: Amazon says wage hike ‘more than compensates’ for loss of bonuses

#71

"Bezos is no fool. He will reduce his headcount, and step up his automation effort to eliminate as many low-skilled jobs from Amazon. Then he will lobby Congress to increase the minimum wage for his competitors that still employ lower-skilled workers. As these competitors will lack the resources to automate, they will be driven out of business, and all their workers will lose their jobs. Less competition will make it…

The problem I have with this argument is that it sets up Amazon in a caricature that always makes them look evil and anti-labor: 1) Don't support lowering the minimum wage = Democrats + labor groups hate on you for not paying workers, even if you can hire more of them = anti-labor 2) Support the minimum wage nationally + across their international workforce = "This is an automation ploy + competitive advantage = anti…

Bingo! This debate is almost entirely predicated on all sides claiming to know the unknowable, and predict the future outcomes of policy changes where not only is the evidence and data very mixed, but where we aren't really sure what outcome we want. This is terrifying to me, because we have smart people with zero skin in the game playing with the poorest, most vulnerable people's lives in an ideological shouting match.

On what outcome we want, I think people are confused about the actual affect minimum wage has. Some people will lose their jobs when minimum wages increase. That is just inevitable, and not something anyone really argues against. The most positive response is that job losses will be small, and/or those jobs are usually not very pleasant anyway.

If we assume someone on an unlivable wage can either have their wage increased to livable, stay the same - i.e. minimum goes up, hours go down, actual pay is ballpark the same - or lose their job and become unemployed, what population level outcome is acceptable?

In the most simplistic case, what split of people losing jobs and becoming unemployed is acceptable if everyone else gets a livable wage? 60 (made unemployed) vs 40 (employed)? 50-50? 40-60?

What if the the group that works for unlivable wages stays almost static, and it is 10% job loss, 70% no change, 20% increase? Is that the success or failure?

These examples ignore people outside this group, and it is possible that some people who currently make livable wages today could have their hours cut or accelerated automation catches them as well. Even with the most simplistic outcomes, I don't know what numbers society wants to optimise for. How can we judge if a policy works if we don't know what we want to achieve?

It also ignores the economic diversity of the USA. Prices will rise a LOT in some places if Seattle/SF minimum wages are applied to less economically strong states, and the results could be disastrous. AFAIK (data is a few years old) there are a few states with median wages less than $15 in the USA - see https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/free-lunches-like-th... A blanket $15 is troublesome, while maybe ineffective (if it works) in some other states.

So it seems to me we have no clear objectives, no outcomes we are excited by, but what we do have are people for whom minimum wage laws are an article of faith. Any attempts to actually measure the affects of any of this will be fought vociferously by all sides, usually with competing BS studies. You just have to see what happened in Seattle, where a long term, detailed but ultimately negative study was countered with a hastily written pro-report for ideological reasons.

Terrifying certainty in an uncertain domain combined with unclear goals and a determined effort to not measure? Nah, nothing could possibligh go bad here...

Re: Amazon says wage hike ‘more than compensates’ for loss of bonuses

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true for shares, but NPR had interviews with Amazon warehouse workers that indicated the cash bonuses are monthly. One of the interviewees indicated his bonuses would sometimes equal his salary during busy periods like the holidays.

I wonder what % of the employees got bonuses though. are 95% of the employees better off, and the highest performers taking home less?

It depends on whether your entire building exceeds productivity by a certain amount, which isn't guaranteed. Also, employees lose half or all of their bonus for the month using UPT, which puts them one flat tire or traffic jam away from potentially losing out even if they would otherwise get VCP that month.

When it works, it works, the problem is you can't predict it, and since you can't predict it, you can't depend on it.

Re: Amazon says wage hike ‘more than compensates’ for loss of bonuses

#73

"Bezos is no fool. He will reduce his headcount, and step up his automation effort to eliminate as many low-skilled jobs from Amazon. Then he will lobby Congress to increase the minimum wage for his competitors that still employ lower-skilled workers. As these competitors will lack the resources to automate, they will be driven out of business, and all their workers will lose their jobs. Less competition will make it…

The problem I have with this argument is that it sets up Amazon in a caricature that always makes them look evil and anti-labor: 1) Don't support lowering the minimum wage = Democrats + labor groups hate on you for not paying workers, even if you can hire more of them = anti-labor 2) Support the minimum wage nationally + across their international workforce = "This is an automation ploy + competitive advantage = anti…

Amazon is anti-labor. Someone posted a leak of their union-suppression policies not long ago[0], and they're quite vocal about their anti-union stance being a part of their "ownership culture."

You're right that they're damned if they do, damned if they don't though, but let's not pretend they haven't earned that mistrust.

[0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18077434

Re: Amazon says wage hike ‘more than compensates’ for loss of bonuses

#74
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy this argument. The problem usually isn't that robots are too expensive to do the human jobs, it's that robots can't do the human jobs, period. If something can be done by machine, it is done by machine, and that's been true since the beginning of the industrial era. Entire job classifications get wiped out by new automation, all the time. At this point, the jobs that are still done by humans are jobs that…

The Amazon of China, Jingdong, has a fulfillment center that handles hundreds of thousands of packages a day and employs just five people: https://youtu.be/RFV8IkY52iY Amazon used humans because the investment to build full automation was too expensive and take too long to build out compared to spinning up human labor. However now the logistics of the fulfillment center are well understood and they can be rebuilt wit…

>It was clearly a matter of time and money, not “these jobs are impractical hard to do with automation”

I take it you haven't seen a single item dropped on the floor result in several Kivas playing bumper cars with each other, necessitating human beings to physically drag them away.

Re: Amazon says wage hike ‘more than compensates’ for loss of bonuses

#75
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Amazon of China, Jingdong, has a fulfillment center that handles hundreds of thousands of packages a day and employs just five people: https://youtu.be/RFV8IkY52iY Amazon used humans because the investment to build full automation was too expensive and take too long to build out compared to spinning up human labor. However now the logistics of the fulfillment center are well understood and they can be rebuilt wit…

Automation doesn't work for everything. Like when the product being shipping is of varying size and shape. Like clothing, books, pouches all in one box. Or stacking the boxes in a truck. Or look at something like car assembly. Tesla still uses people to route wiring harnesses through the car body because robots can't do it well. Many simple things can get automated but there is still a lot not yet possible.

Why does it matter if automation doesn't work for everything. There is a particular breaking point in unskilled labor where doing enough means lots of unemployed with little chance of being reeducated for the necessary jobs the future demands.

Re: Amazon says wage hike ‘more than compensates’ for loss of bonuses

#76
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy this argument. The problem usually isn't that robots are too expensive to do the human jobs, it's that robots can't do the human jobs, period. If something can be done by machine, it is done by machine, and that's been true since the beginning of the industrial era. Entire job classifications get wiped out by new automation, all the time. At this point, the jobs that are still done by humans are jobs that…

If something can be done by machine, it is done by machine, and that's been true since the beginning of the industrial era. Imagine an online retailer that employed 1000 people January-November, and 2000 people during December. Automating the seasonal jobs would have a payback time 12x longer than automating the non-seasonal jobs. The December robots lock up capital during the 11 months of the year they're idle.

So the 1000 jobs will be automated. The 1000-2000 jobs will not. Then again I don't think people working only 3 months out of a year at minimum wage creates a valid economy.

Re: Amazon says wage hike ‘more than compensates’ for loss of bonuses

#77
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they are being replaced with engineers, salesmen, and customer support, not with warehouse employees. Different skill sets and likely, a net loss of jobs for the poorest and a net increase of white collar positions.

200 years ago, 95% or more of the population was employed as farmers. Today, it's less than 3%. Somehow, we survived.

Because we created millions, if not billions of new jobs that machines couldn't do.

Physical work -> thinking work -> ???

Also, you forgot that many of the Luddites actually starved to death in the streets.

Re: Amazon says wage hike ‘more than compensates’ for loss of bonuses

#78
post #47

This sort of hand wringing seems like a distraction from the likelihood that Amazon has moved up the date* in which these jobs will be eliminated. Whether employees are netting out the same or not is going to be moot. If it's similar though then that really doesn't seem like a good deal longer term. *Robots will be able to do the jobs for $15 hour sooner than they'll be able to for $7 an hour. The math will accelerat…

> Robots will be able to do the jobs for $15 hour sooner than they'll be able to for $7 an hour This doesn't make sense. Increasing workers wages doesn't change the rate a which automation technology becomes available. The bottle neck is the availablity of capable automation systems which is unrelated to workers wages. Even if there was a technology available that cost $15 an hour and worker wages were $7, increasing…

Hmmm, what you are saying doesn't make sense.

Lets say there is an industrial machine that TCO is $50,000 per year to operate.

Lets say a human doing the same task, same quantity, and same outcome, for low pay only costs $20,000.

It would be crazy not to use humans. Trying to drop the cost of the machine is likely going to be very difficult because there will be no demand.

Now, give the humans a raise and insurance. Lets say that brings up the total human cost to $48,000. We'll, it is actually worth getting the machines now. Seems counter intuitive even when the machine is $2000 more. But it is almost granted the cost of the machines will drop now there is a mass market for them.

Re: Amazon says wage hike ‘more than compensates’ for loss of bonuses

#79
post #78
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Robots will be able to do the jobs for $15 hour sooner than they'll be able to for $7 an hour This doesn't make sense. Increasing workers wages doesn't change the rate a which automation technology becomes available. The bottle neck is the availablity of capable automation systems which is unrelated to workers wages. Even if there was a technology available that cost $15 an hour and worker wages were $7, increasing…

Hmmm, what you are saying doesn't make sense. Lets say there is an industrial machine that TCO is $50,000 per year to operate. Lets say a human doing the same task, same quantity, and same outcome, for low pay only costs $20,000. It would be crazy not to use humans. Trying to drop the cost of the machine is likely going to be very difficult because there will be no demand. Now, give the humans a raise and insurance.…

Raising the wages of humans so they are the same cost as machines doesn't make the machines cheaper. Amazon could keep workers wages low and still buy machines and create the market. One doesn't necessitate the other.

Re: Amazon says wage hike ‘more than compensates’ for loss of bonuses

#80
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think for Schiff to be right, they would have to be ultimately raising their prices.

They've been slowly doing that for years now

Do you have any data that isn't subjective? I have subjective data saying the opposite.

8/9 times when I shop Around Amazon has the best price. If it's close, like a buck or so difference, I still choose Amazon due to reliability, speed, and me having a history of good customer service interactions.

I buy everything I need every month on Subscribe & Save (from tooth, toilet paper, to batteries, air freshener, etc) and the even greater 15% discounts add up as well.

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