Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030 • Hacker News Board

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#71

Post by maxsilver » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:13 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #66

maxsilver wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Range Rover has a model with a whooping 1 mile(!!!) of electric range, but of course it has an electric motor so it qualifies as a hybrid "Just 1 mile of electric range" is true for most hybrids that don't plug into to charge (from Ford, Chevy, Toyota, etc). Obviously more miles would be even better, but this isn't a terrible thing on it's own. The base non-plug-in Toyota Prius Hybrid has had "just 1 mile of electr…

> that hasn't stopped it from getting 50mpg ratings Is this the "50mpg under ideal laboratory conditions driven by an AI" or "as driven in a real city/highway by a human"?

50mpg as tested by the EPA - https://www.epa.gov/vehicle-and-fuel-emissions-testing . Real world drivers tend to report similar numbers - http://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/prius

Obviously, you can stomp on the throttle and get worse numbers if you want. But US MPG ratings are reasonably real-world accurate. (And the US fleet number comes from the same testing from the same group using the same metrics -- so they should be fair to compare)

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#72

Post by jjuhl » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:13 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #57

jimmaswell wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood how anyone possibly felt the ridiculously extremist state of affairs of automobile/fuel regulations/taxes/etc in Denmark is appropriate. The rest of Europe isn't that great either but Denmark is one of or the most insane examples (memory isn't clear on if there was another member state that was even worse). One of the things that makes me grateful to live in the USA - owning and operating a car doe…

>I never understood how anyone possibly felt the ridiculously extremist state of affairs of automobile/fuel regulations/taxes/etc in Denmark is appropriate. You will never understand it because those people have a completely different world view than you or I when it comes to taxation. You will also probably never understand a lot of other crazy things that people with different world views believe. The idea that tax…

$5/L? Make that $50/L if I was in charge.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#73

Post by mrguyorama » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:13 PM UTC

As an idealist I'm glad to see the world transition away from fossil fuels in any capacity.

As a "Car Guy" however, there is a small sadness that I won't really get to experience much of the internal combustion engine. I feel like I was born a decade too late and a lot too poor. Similar to some techies who feel the missed the early internet.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#74

Post by audunw » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:14 PM UTC

PopeDotNinja wrote: post #26

I went to Denmark last year and spent two weeks driving all over the countryside, and likely would have been difficult to reach with an electric car. Many of the places I visited would not have been accessible via public transit. I'm curious how future generations will reach remote places as we move away from fossil fuels. BTW, I loved Denmark :)

How far ahead are you thinking?

BEVs are likely to match pure ICEVs (I.e. not counting hybrids) in range in the not too distant future. Yeah you could theoretically put in a bigger fuel tank, or bring extra gasoline. But I mean a standard light vehicle that doesn't sacrifice storage space.

Meanwhile, if you get enough EVs on the road, you'll soon have charging stations everywhere. We already see it here in Norway. Almost every roadside McDonalds have rapid chargers. There are a couple of supermarket chains that have gotten pretty good at having chargers in many of their supermarkets.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#75

Post by vegardx » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:16 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #61

tedeh wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enforcing it is going to be quite simple. The "DMV" or equivalent will have a very hard time explaining why they are still giving out license plates for new vehicles that are not electric if the ban is made law.

As I explained elsewhere - hybrids are exempt. And all current manufacturers can make all of their models into some extremely mild hybrids just to get around the ban. So expect to see a lot of models with 1bhp electric motors just to classify as hybrids coming out soon. And cars made before the ban will obviously be still allowed, so there's no issues there.

I doubt it. This is already a solved problem. We have emission standards that makes those designs more or less pointless.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#76

Post by bluGill » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:16 PM UTC

daveFNbuck wrote: post #60

martin_bech wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incentives are to be anounced next week. If they follow the so called “climate panel” they will be horrible.. a Tesla will actually go up in price..

Tesla is already selling all the cars they can make. If the goal is a higher percentage of electric cars on the road, subsidizing them won't help. The more important thing is to incentivize other manufacturers to produce more electric vehicles.

To play devils advocate: electric cars are a niche, Sure Tesla can sell out. The niche is large enough - for more players, but ultimately electric cars will top out at a small fraction of the total vehicle market.

Of course this is predicting the future. Nobody does that well. In a few years we will have facts, but that doesn't say much about the future beyond that.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#77

Post by Annatar » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:18 PM UTC

Good luck with that, especially with banning ultramodern, low emission, high performance diesel cars.

I was in Denmark last year to see what's going on over there and I observed the infrastructure very carefully: there is no widespread electric infrastructure for cars; it will be a gargantuan investment of epic proportions. Even if the infrastructure is put in, the current battery technology is only barely adequate for daily city driving. Everything else - forget it! So this is banking on future infrastructure improvement in batteries and recharging, and it's especially banking on invention of fast recharging. And it's assuming diesel engines and emissions will stand still, with no further improvements. Just wondering, Danes like to travel and they like to hitch a camping trailer to their cars and drive all over Europe; how will they be able to do that if their government bans sales of cars with internal combustion engines?

Whatever stuff that government is on, it's gotta be potent; I'd like some of whatever they're smoking.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#78

Post by FranOntanaya » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:18 PM UTC

mrguyorama wrote: post #73

As an idealist I'm glad to see the world transition away from fossil fuels in any capacity. As a "Car Guy" however, there is a small sadness that I won't really get to experience much of the internal combustion engine. I feel like I was born a decade too late and a lot too poor. Similar to some techies who feel the missed the early internet.

The enjoyable cars and the context where they are driven e.g. tracks, events, may not change that much.

The boring utilitarian combustion engines the large majority of humanity has ever experienced probably won't be missed, though. Boring cars were still boring a decade ago.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#79

Post by lsiunsuex » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:18 PM UTC

mrguyorama wrote: post #73

As an idealist I'm glad to see the world transition away from fossil fuels in any capacity. As a "Car Guy" however, there is a small sadness that I won't really get to experience much of the internal combustion engine. I feel like I was born a decade too late and a lot too poor. Similar to some techies who feel the missed the early internet.

As a car guy also - I've thought about this... also.

Best plan is pick a few "classics" be it 60s muscle cars or current muscle cars, and buy them before they hit scrap yards or are destroyed.

Not an easy thing to do of course - cost of car, storage, restoration if it's old, but they can be saved and kept as toys.

Restoring a 60s camaro has always been a dream of mine.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#80

Post by reacharavindh » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:20 PM UTC

jimmaswell wrote: post #22

reacharavindh wrote: post #13

Wonder what it'd do to the resale value of cars even before 2030. Denmark with their famous 150% registration tax already has cars being used much longer than what I've seen in other countries. I'd love to see the 150% tax waived off for 100% electric cars that are not luxury vehicles. Set strict constraints for a common man car, and incentivize it turning electric. Also, think about the charging infrastructure....

I never understood how anyone possibly felt the ridiculously extremist state of affairs of automobile/fuel regulations/taxes/etc in Denmark is appropriate. The rest of Europe isn't that great either but Denmark is one of or the most insane examples (memory isn't clear on if there was another member state that was even worse). One of the things that makes me grateful to live in the USA - owning and operating a car doe…

I wrote the comment you responded to. I live in Denmark, and here is my take on this.

It's not as extreme that I'd call it "extremist state of affairs". Fewer cars are for the greater good. However, what pisses me the most is how it is really implemented. There is the famous 150% tax when you buy a car, and then there is a green tax every 6 months/quarter that is based on how efficient &a safe your car is. I'm all for the green tax. Heck, double or triple it, and make the SUV drivers pay. But, the 150% tax IMO is lop sided policy. It lead to too many small cars(VW Up, Seat equivalent, and the like) because that's what common people can afford. Another side effect is that people tend to keep shitty cars much longer than rational, because they cannot afford a better car - throwing away all the emission savings in the wind(pun intended).

I think the law is made by politicians just based on life in Copenhagen, where you can use the trains and bike wherever. Public transportation is A-class, and you don't particularly need a car for the most part.

The rest of Denmark, where I live, public transport is not as good, and car becomes a necessity if you go to work outside the city. We're the collateral damage of the narrow minded policies.

/rant.

Denmark, as everyone here says is an excellent place to live, and I have a bigger list of positives to list, and a tiny list including this car tax to complain about.