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Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

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Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#71

My feeling is that these jobs should be given to US college grads first. Let them grow into the roles. Why are we letting foreigners get hired into these roles instead? Let the college grad learn on the job, instead of the external candidate. I have noticed that they pay less for h1b workers, and this is not only at Cisco, basically everywhere I have worked. I’ve also seen the companies write job descriptions that on…

As an employer, if you had to choose between two candidates, one of whom was harder working, much more likely to stay long term, had more experience, and was cheaper, which one would you choose?

Some of those points you can’t do much about, but others are fundamentally caused by the H-1B restrictions on employees. If they were relaxed it would make the playing field a lot more even, and stop companies from abusing the program to get cheap labor.

Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#72
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US will be minority American in 25 years as virtually every news source will gleefully tell you. The foreign migration into the USA is massive and unprecedented in history, except for the original colonization. What you say about housing costs is not wrong, but it’s also very incomplete. Many other factors drive housing inflation, just one example is that mortgages expand the total money supply, resulting in text…

"American" is not a race, what do you mean by that?

American is a nationality that has roots going back centuries. They are one of the youngest ethnic groups on the planet, having just recently branched off from the English, but they have their own dialects, cuisine, music, and all the other cultural traits.

Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#73
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Committing securities violations on Twitter is a job that Americans just won’t do. Tweets are rotting on the internets! Seriously though, Elon Musk has undoubtedly benefitted from immigrating to the United States, as most immigrants do. Presumably the native born employees of Tesla and his other ventures have directly benefitted as well. Of course it’s impossible to show one way or the other that a native born entrep…

> I don’t believe Americans benefit from a level of migration that makes them a political minority in their own homeland though Non sequitur. Is anyone even arguing that this should be the case?

Well it's current legislative policy. The posterity of the founders, which is to say the American people, will be a minority in 2045 according to the US census[1]. In fact they actually already are, since the largest "white" ethnic group in the USA is actually Germans. Germans however showed a strong inclination to assimilate, whereas the most recent migrants prefer to keep their language, culture, religion, and political views.

[1]https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2018/03/14/the-us-...

Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#74

My feeling is that these jobs should be given to US college grads first. Let them grow into the roles. Why are we letting foreigners get hired into these roles instead? Let the college grad learn on the job, instead of the external candidate. I have noticed that they pay less for h1b workers, and this is not only at Cisco, basically everywhere I have worked. I’ve also seen the companies write job descriptions that on…

> My feeling is that these jobs should be given to US college grads first. Let them grow into the roles. Why are we letting foreigners get hired into these roles instead?

In the case of senior roles: Because letting a college grad grow into a job that requires many years of experience, unsurprisingly, takes many years to grow in to.

As to entry-level positions I'd assume that a shortage of American candidates would be the reason. Or perhaps some employers have experienced foreign workers that seem more motivated/harder working (for instance they might have more to loose from being fired)?

> I have noticed that they pay less for h1b workers, and this is not only at Cisco, basically everywhere I have worked.

That would be a violation of H-1B requirements and seems to be why the Department of Labor is taking action against Cisco here.

> I’ve also seen the companies write job descriptions that only fit the h1b worker so they can help them get a green card.

I'm curious if you can provide an example of a job description that only fit one H-1B worker?

Also, H-1B is a non-immigrant visa, i.e. not a green card. It's a "dual intent" visa, which just means that an employer can legally file for a green card for an employee in H-1B status - it doesn't grant any immigrant benefits or a direct path to permanent residence.

> It’s sad.

If an employer is abusing the immigration system by somehow designing job descriptions for a specific person (and I'm interested in examples of that as noted above) I agree.

However, and I suspect this represents the vast majority of EB visa petitions for temporary workers, I don't find it sad if an employer sponsor a green card after someone has worked in the U.S. for many years. The H-1B visa is limited to 6 years max, after which the worker will have to leave the U.S. In most cases I'd find it quite nice if an employer makes the effort of securing a green card for an someone who has created a life for themselves in the US. It's also ususlly in the best interest of the employer, which is why they spend the time and resources to do it :)

> Finally, I believe that companies have too much power over a h1b worker. If they fire them, they only have a month to find a new job and then they have to fly home. It’s bad on all sides.

I agree fully with that sentiment, but it's unfortunately worse than you think: Technically an H-1B worker whose employment is terminated have to leave the country immediately. There's a vaguely defined policy granting some degree of lenience/grace period, but it's not a right at all.

In reality, a person in H-1B status should see every day in the US as potentially their last - at least in legal status (although very short lapses are often tolerated/accepted).

Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#75

5 out of the 6 people who interviewed me at Amazon had foreign accents. Do Americans just not go into tech anymore? Are there not enough? Do they ask for too much money? Are they too lazy? Are they not smart enough? I don't understand it. I heard they'd been hiring like crazy - I'm a pretty good software engineer but I didn't get the job. Maybe I told them I want too much money. No kids, no land, half of my wages go…

American kids drop out of school at a very high rate. The percentage who make it higher education is so less, the institutions have to look at foreign kids for their income. The kids from India and China who come here for higher education stay back and try to get a job (So that they can pay off their loans) If they get lucky, they get a H1B and stay back to earn a living. So yes, Americans don't go to tech as much as other nationalities do. Yes, there are not enough of non asian/Indian Americans who make it to the level demanded by these jobs. Lazy, yes, usually the immigrants are more driven than the resident population.

Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#76
Many companies do this. I used to work at Apple, where they exploited the hell out of H1-B workers "instead of hiring US citizens". This happens in Sunnyvale, Cupertino, Santa Clara, and San Francisco (and probably many other parts of the country). Much of this takes place in their IT org: "IS&T" as well as the org that contains iTunes: "Apple Media Products" aka "AMP". They prefer to have foreign workers who can be removed and replaced on a whim. It helps create an environment where people are constantly doing "extra" work to show that they should be converted from contractor to employee (which is many contractors dream, bc if they become and H1-B directly at Apple, they'll be free from the tax that the consulting agencies take from their salary, and it also provides mobility if they aren't as beholden to the consulting agency). It also helps keep salaries low.

The IS&T org alone is above 10,000 employees, and there are more contractors than employees by roughly 2.5:1. I would estimate the number of H1B workers in the IS&T org alone would be greater than the total number of H1B workers at Cisco.

Apple uses shell contracting agencies, like Tata, Wipro, Infosys, Accenture, etc, so that they don't have to report the number of H1-B's that they have.

Also, many of these engineers skill level is an insult to the engineering industry. If you couple that with severe communication/ESL problems, it's a wonder why any American engineer would work for Apple in these orgs. It's not that there isn't local talent available. It's that the companies are just too cheap. Nobody working there speaks up to hold them accountable, because they believe they're just lucky to have a job at Apple in the first place.

Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#77

5 out of the 6 people who interviewed me at Amazon had foreign accents. Do Americans just not go into tech anymore? Are there not enough? Do they ask for too much money? Are they too lazy? Are they not smart enough? I don't understand it. I heard they'd been hiring like crazy - I'm a pretty good software engineer but I didn't get the job. Maybe I told them I want too much money. No kids, no land, half of my wages go…

Also, if foreign accents bother you, maybe they caught on the fact that you weren't a cultural fit for that team. Or maybe you are not a pretty good software engineer. Maybe both.

Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#78
Three scenarios:

1. The Intentionally Bad: A symptom of Ultra-capitalism, working towards short term financial gains to make the next quarter look good for shareholders.

2. The Situationally Bad: Employee salaries at current levels are unsustainable and there isn't the interest from locals to work for lower, more sustainable rates.

3. An Actual Skills Shortage: Can't find suitable people locally, gotta look at the international market.

Secondary Point, a gross paraphrasing:

First they came for manufacturing, and I didn't speak up because I was a software engineer. Then they came for the software engineers...

Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#79

Many companies do this. I used to work at Apple, where they exploited the hell out of H1-B workers "instead of hiring US citizens". This happens in Sunnyvale, Cupertino, Santa Clara, and San Francisco (and probably many other parts of the country). Much of this takes place in their IT org: "IS&T" as well as the org that contains iTunes: "Apple Media Products" aka "AMP". They prefer to have foreign workers who can be…

> Also, many of these engineers skill level is an insult to the engineering industry

This feels like a 'race to the bottom' strategy that will work against the company in the long term.

Re: Cisco ‘secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring US citizens’: report

#80
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are not enough Young Americans anymore. That sound weird but true. Also a college grad fresh out of college can not compete with the huge supply of experienced and better Indian/Chinese/Korean engineers.

I’ve worked with multiple American and Canadian interns who were far more technically proficient and productive than senior level foreign labor. Everyone knows that people subconsciously prefer to hire people who look like them. This affects Asians too. It’s self evident that organizations with Asian hiring managers prefer to hire their own people. I know this won’t sit well with some people here, but it’s observably…

I have worked with multiple American senior engineers who are not as technically proficient and productive as junior foreign labor. What you are saying is anecdotal.

This is true for your second point, specifically pointing out that asians hire other asians. This is true for white Americans as well. So, how is that any different?

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