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Ask HN: Software development after 40, how do you keep the fire?

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Re: Ask HN: Software development after 40, how do you keep the fire?

#71

Post by bcheung »

awinder wrote: post #31
bgribble wrote: post #12

I'm 47 and got my first programming job at 19. I still love it and look forward to a good number more years. I have a few guidelines/principles that seem to have worked so far: * Do meaningful work, whatever that means to you. Maybe it's picking a domain that helps people or society, or maybe it's some other criterion. Ask yourself what meaningful work is to you. * Be mindful about your craftsmanship and always work…

If you don't mind me asking -- have you found trouble with staying in programming / development into your 40s? Or do you see trouble staying in programming into the "good number of years" ahead? I'm just curious as someone in their early 30's who feels the "pull" towards management as a career longevity move. But on the flip side, I love "soft/upwards management" and being hands-on way more, and without the massive d…

I'm 40 and have no trouble staying in programming / development.

The challenge is "Flow". It needs to be something at the right difficulty level and as you get older it feels like things get very repetitive.

Working a company with a hard problem to solve and that allows for more creativity, experimentation, and implementing of new ideas / paradigms is very rewarding. I have been at other companies where it feels more like grunt work and it is miserable.

I haven't personally felt any drive towards management but I do find mentoring junior developers and interns quite rewarding.

Re: Ask HN: Software development after 40, how do you keep the fire?

#72

Post by qpiox »

I am programming since 1986. I have programmed in Fortran, Cobol, Basic, Logo, Forth, C, C++, Pascal, Lisp, Prolog, Java. I love programming.

I don't know if I made it "big".

What is big?

None of the projects I have made in the past are still in use. Most have been forgotten. Some were forgotten even by me, although I was the only developer :)

Software is a moving target. There is no making it big. Everything you do will get obsolete pretty soon.

But this is good! That is exactly the point. Software is intended to be "soft" and changed whenever a change is needed.

So, when programming you are competing with yourself and your abilities as of that moment in time. The only negative outcome is when you fail to make it at that time, so you fail the expectations you have from yourself.

If you don't love programming and deeply understand that all software projects will be "failed ones", consider another approach.

In programming you should not aim towards motivation from recognition by others, but from exceeding your expectations from your self. To a better job, always! Aim high, really high! Aim complex, really complex!

Re: Ask HN: Software development after 40, how do you keep the fire?

#73

Post by alex_lod »

tinktank wrote: post #69
alex_lod wrote: post #9

Have you heard of the concept “beginner’s mind?” It’s an attitude that can be developed with practice that helps you see otherwise ordinary things with awe and curiosity. Here’s a bit more about it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin if you’re curious I can share more references.

I would love some more references please.

The term is most commonly associated with Suzuki Roshi, who founded the San Francisco Zen Center. He has a book, "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind." You can learn more about him here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunry%C5%AB_Suzuki

Here are a few blog posts:

- https://zenhabits.net/beginner/ - https://jackkornfield.com/beginners-mind/

Here are a few talks/podcasts:

- http://dharmaseed.org/teacher/68/talk/17919/ - http://dharmaseed.org/teacher/23/talk/500/ - http://dharmaseed.org/teacher/139/talk/893/

Finally, I have had the most special "beginner's mind" experiences while attending multi-day, silent meditation retreats. I live in the Bay Area, so I've attended Spirit Rock up in Marin. However, retreat centers exist all across the world. I recommend "insight" retreats, which are sometimes referred to as "mindfulness" or "Vipassana" retreats.

I hope this is helpful!

Re: Ask HN: Software development after 40, how do you keep the fire?

#74

Post by collyw »

irchans wrote: post #49
edw519 wrote: post #8

...to make up for a slower brain, less stamina and decreasing memory... This is NOT normal and should not be accepted as such. I'm 63 and have been programming professionally for 40 years. I'm currently working on several projects that are as complex as anything I've ever done. I honestly feel that that I get better every year, build stuff I never imagined a few years ago. I know this is subjective, but I feel like m…

Wow, at age 53 I am definitely slower. I type more slowly and I remember less. On the other hand, maybe I know a bit more than I did when I was young.

To me I would compare it to running. I can't sprint as well / come up with clever algorithms on the spot, but I can manage long distance / far more large scale complexity and pace my self better.

Re: Ask HN: Software development after 40, how do you keep the fire?

#75

Post by EliRivers »

I think I am as productive, maybe even more, than I was 20 years ago.

That's interesting. Only "maybe"?

I am so much more productive than I was 15 years ago. Is it possible you're looking back at your much younger self through rose-tinted bifocals? I am at least an order of magnitude more productive than I was 15 years ago. Nowadays, things get DONE and done right, and then I have time for a cup of tea and a chapter of Josuttis (this second edition templates book is a monster).

Re: Ask HN: Software development after 40, how do you keep the fire?

#76

Post by tinktank »

alex_lod wrote: post #73
tinktank wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love some more references please.

The term is most commonly associated with Suzuki Roshi, who founded the San Francisco Zen Center. He has a book, "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind." You can learn more about him here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunry%C5%AB_Suzuki Here are a few blog posts: - https://zenhabits.net/beginner/ - https://jackkornfield.com/beginners-mind/ Here are a few talks/podcasts: - http://dharmaseed.org/teacher/68/talk/17919/ - http://d…

Very helpful, I'm going to pick up on these immediately. Thanks again.

Re: Ask HN: Software development after 40, how do you keep the fire?

#77

Post by banterfoil »

alex_lod wrote: post #9

Have you heard of the concept “beginner’s mind?” It’s an attitude that can be developed with practice that helps you see otherwise ordinary things with awe and curiosity. Here’s a bit more about it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin if you’re curious I can share more references.

I loved this! I don't think there is an English word that succinctly describes this. Thanks for sharing

Re: Ask HN: Software development after 40, how do you keep the fire?

#79

Post by mikestew »

awinder wrote: post #31
bgribble wrote: post #12

I'm 47 and got my first programming job at 19. I still love it and look forward to a good number more years. I have a few guidelines/principles that seem to have worked so far: * Do meaningful work, whatever that means to you. Maybe it's picking a domain that helps people or society, or maybe it's some other criterion. Ask yourself what meaningful work is to you. * Be mindful about your craftsmanship and always work…

If you don't mind me asking -- have you found trouble with staying in programming / development into your 40s? Or do you see trouble staying in programming into the "good number of years" ahead? I'm just curious as someone in their early 30's who feels the "pull" towards management as a career longevity move. But on the flip side, I love "soft/upwards management" and being hands-on way more, and without the massive d…

I'm just curious as someone in their early 30's who feels the "pull" towards management as a career longevity move.

Yeah, I answered that call. Meh, avoid if you can, unless you really, really feel that the team would do better with you leading it rather than contributing at an IC level. IOW, let's not take a good engineer and turn her into a mediocre (if you're lucky) manager.

There have been those times when a team was better off with me as a leader, rather than getting my hands dirty. But when I've been that better leader, it's because I learned from being a shitty one. And no matter how good of an engineer you might be, if you go management you are almost guaranteed to suck at your job for a while. And who wants to suck at their job?

So now I'm in my fifties, plugging away as an IC, happy as a clam in shit. I've owned and sold two businesses (turns out I don't like being a businessman, either), clawed my way to director (well, it kind of landed in my lap), but sit me down with an editor and a problem to solve, and that's where I want to be. I don't make as much money as I could, but FFS, even a kid out of college can make six figures in this industry, how much more money do I need? Happiness, OTOH, I can always use more of.

I don't worry about "aging out" of coding. I'll caveat that with the fact that when I hired on at Microsoft in the 90s, some folks thought that meant you were kinda smart. So there is the chance that I'm the rich person telling poor people to just make more money and they won't be poor anymore when I say that I don't have any more problem passing the interview and doing the job than I ever did. And I think I'm just a maybe above-average techy, despite what companies might be on my resume. But, yeah, if your most recent experience is maintaining old FoxPro applications for the last ten years, you might have a spot of trouble.

Re: Ask HN: Software development after 40, how do you keep the fire?

#80

Post by mikestew »

And I mean, it's not very surprising, if you haven't made it big at 40+, that means you worked on a lot of failed projects, that makes it harder to believe you can change that.

Here's a harsh fact to put in your smoking pipe: few of us are going to "make it big". Whether it's FU money, founding and selling a successful startup, working on a blockbuster game, speaking at PDC, or writing a book even as remotely popular as Gang of Four or _Mythical Man Month_. Nope, the best the vast majority of us can hope for is to claw our way to VP of Engineering at Company You've Never Heard Of, LLC. Because a lot of making it big is sheer luck (granted, hard work can earn you more Sheer Luck Dollars, but it's still luck.)

So? Failed projects? Not my responsibility, I did my part; not my problem that management can't manage a project. But I still got to do the work, which was fun, and they still paid me. I don't need other people to use what I wrote to validate my existence. The experience can be used for next time.

build something really significant

Yeah, then you look back and realize what "significant" really means. The next Twitter? Facebook? Really? You know what I work on these days? Stuff that talks to programmable logic controllers on assembly lines. And having worked at several startups that were working on something "significant", I think what I'm working on now is more significant than any of it (obviously, because those startups are gone, and this place has been around 30 years). Because it's real stuff that people use everyday to make actual widgets, instead of building something the world is not a whole lot poorer without, that we'll figure out how to monetize later, probably with ads.

In summary, I kept the fire by changing my attitude about what is important in a macro sense as well as to me personally.

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