Facebook addiction linked to staking your self-worth on social acceptance • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook addiction linked to staking your self-worth on social acceptance

#71

Post by austincheney » Sun, Aug 19, 2018, 4:40 PM UTC

s-shellfish wrote: post #51

austincheney wrote: post #12

How horrible. If I had a dime for every time somebody on the internet took a civil disagreement of opinion to an emotional level I would be a trillionaire. If this is how I qualified my self-worth I would be in a very bad place. This is also the reason I deleted my Reddit account. God forbid you offer technical advise or attempt to explain a complex subject and the answer somehow becomes extremely political. The bigg…

> I could have said something about harming children and would have been less reviled. Yes, but that's literally because people see their technologies as being more human than most humans. It's something that goes down to an individuals core and is intrinsically defining of how they understand and express. Not saying it makes sense to average Joe. Just a different breed of person. For example, the soundness property…

When I encounter echo chambers here is what I see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformity

It is the opposite of wanting to learn, explore, or be challenged. It is all about harmony and using people as numbers to wrap yourself in a warm comfort blanket of emotional protection and qualification. It is the very idea that an opinion is truth when it can be made popular or false if it can be demonized by a congregation, particularly when every conversation is a contest with emotional validation as the prize.

When emotional harmony becomes more important than the subject matter of discussion I am done.

Re: Facebook addiction linked to staking your self-worth on social acceptance

#72

Post by hfdgiutdryg » Sun, Aug 19, 2018, 4:43 PM UTC

DanielGee wrote: post #17

What about HN's addiction to news about facebook? I thought after a year of relentless facebook spam, we were past this. Now the top two posts are about facebook. We have to kick this habit.

1) It's a phenomenally successful tech company.

2) It's not uncommon in HN to dislike and/or distrust Facebook.

Re: Facebook addiction linked to staking your self-worth on social acceptance

#73

Post by TangoTrotFox » Sun, Aug 19, 2018, 4:48 PM UTC

RealityVoid wrote: post #3

TangoTrotFox wrote: post #2

The most surprising thing to me about this report is that it was self reported. I have no doubt that there are an immense, and seemingly increasing, number of people that stake their self worth on social acceptance. What is surprising to me is that people do this while being consciously aware of it!

I think this is by no means a new phenomenon. We as humans have staked our self-worth on social acceptance for millenia, seeing how we are social animals and most of our successes were the consequence of our societal organization. What Facebook might have changed is whom our peers who we derive social acceptance are. That peer group seems to have changed from people close both as proximity and emotionally to people f…

This is a really interesting idea, but I have a fundamental disagreement about society. I completely agree that small groups (family and very small collections of families) would have relied on social acceptance as being important, but I would argue that the giant leap forward that actually created society was specifically working with people without concern for acceptance.

Look at chimps for instance. They also form these very small groups that can number in the tens of chimps. But their little groups are based almost entirely on acceptance and domination, and it prevents them from developing further. They instead just go to war and kill other chimp groups that reach these comparable sizes. And it never ends. They cannot seem to get over 'in group good, out group die'.

By contrast, it seems extremely likely that we all started extremely similarly but at some point realized that instead of each of our little in groups killing each other, if we worked together we would become even stronger and able to kill even more groups to our mutual benefit. Add in some basic rules we agree to abide by, and you have what would be the seed of what would become 'society.'

So as paradoxical as it sounds, I would argue that directly seeking approval as a means of self affirmation could even be a regression away from what creates society. Because working with the 'enemy' is hardly socially acceptable, yet that is precisely what's required for societies to continue to function. You'll never be accepted by everybody so it drives people into ever smaller insular chambers, which then go to metaphorical war with all the other groups, that may over time become less metaphorical. Come to think of it, this does not really seem all that far off from the state of contemporary society.

So I would hypothesize something relatively similar sounding, but fundamentally different. In that social media is perhaps driving some to form these 'chimp style' groups, yet the nature of the internet and worldwide communication has turned these warring insular groups drive largely by acceptance, from the tens of people into the millions of people.

Re: Facebook addiction linked to staking your self-worth on social acceptance

#74

Post by s-shellfish » Sun, Aug 19, 2018, 4:52 PM UTC

austincheney wrote: post #71

s-shellfish wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I could have said something about harming children and would have been less reviled. Yes, but that's literally because people see their technologies as being more human than most humans. It's something that goes down to an individuals core and is intrinsically defining of how they understand and express. Not saying it makes sense to average Joe. Just a different breed of person. For example, the soundness property…

When I encounter echo chambers here is what I see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformity It is the opposite of wanting to learn, explore, or be challenged. It is all about harmony and using people as numbers to wrap yourself in a warm comfort blanket of emotional protection and qualification. It is the very idea that an opinion is truth when it can be made popular or false if it can be demonized by a congregation,…

I agree, but this is the root of my dilemma from which my own understanding has grown.

If I agree with you right here and now, have we not technically formed our own 'echo chamber'?

Echo chambers from the outside look like inside out fishbowls because they are. But every set of agreeable statements, whether shared between individuals or distributed through time, same system - pieces are just labeled differently.

However, I do understand the emotional feeling that occurs when conforming is heavily pressured, from nearly every side. That's disharmonous emotionally to the people it is disharmonous to. The ones who get silenced.

I understand both sides. Can't say I know more than that. Can't say I have an opinion on the matter because it goes beyond the facts.

Another way to look at the problem: are math and logic an echo chamber?

Re: Facebook addiction linked to staking your self-worth on social acceptance

#75

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Aug 19, 2018, 4:56 PM UTC

hfdgiutdryg wrote: post #70

prolikewh0a wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also you will get scolded in a meaningful way if you screw up or say really dumb things with no evidence here.

You'll get downvoted for expressing unpopular opinion, just like every other similar site. HN used to have a general rule in the community that you don't downvote without explaining why. It was a much nicer place back then.

[deleted]

Re: Facebook addiction linked to staking your self-worth on social acceptance

#76

Post by MrLeap » Sun, Aug 19, 2018, 4:57 PM UTC

mindgam3 wrote: post #68

hardwaresofton wrote: post #20

The way this is titled makes the relation seem directional, and in the wrong direction... Basing self worth on social acceptance definitely predates Facebook, and Facebook addiction is a pretty obvious consequence of the positive feedback loop that you'd get form using Facebook to feed that part of yourself. Not defending Facebook or any other social network here, I personally think Facebook is likely toxic -- but I…

Not disagreeing that this predated Facebook. But the problem is that Facebook took this known vulnerability in human psychology and exploited it to the absolute max. The product has been meticulously engineered to push all your social acceptance buttons. It would have been possible to design a product that helped people gain awareness of and transcend the deep underlying insecurities that give rise to addictions of a…

Can Facebook be disrupted by the fentanyl of social networks?

Re: Facebook addiction linked to staking your self-worth on social acceptance

#77

Post by abraham_lincoln » Sun, Aug 19, 2018, 5:06 PM UTC

dustingetz wrote: post #64

hardwaresofton wrote: post #20

The way this is titled makes the relation seem directional, and in the wrong direction... Basing self worth on social acceptance definitely predates Facebook, and Facebook addiction is a pretty obvious consequence of the positive feedback loop that you'd get form using Facebook to feed that part of yourself. Not defending Facebook or any other social network here, I personally think Facebook is likely toxic -- but I…

yes! it is hard for me to imagine a wholesome social network existing. it is the toxicity which is driving the engagement. It would be like selling a drug that isn’t addictive - why on earth would that be a billion dollar product?

Pain pills versus vitamins?

But, we have no social vitamins.

Re: Facebook addiction linked to staking your self-worth on social acceptance

#78

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Aug 19, 2018, 5:15 PM UTC

hardwaresofton wrote: post #20

The way this is titled makes the relation seem directional, and in the wrong direction... Basing self worth on social acceptance definitely predates Facebook, and Facebook addiction is a pretty obvious consequence of the positive feedback loop that you'd get form using Facebook to feed that part of yourself. Not defending Facebook or any other social network here, I personally think Facebook is likely toxic -- but I…

[deleted]

Re: Facebook addiction linked to staking your self-worth on social acceptance

#79

Post by mindgam3 » Sun, Aug 19, 2018, 5:18 PM UTC

MrLeap wrote: post #76

mindgam3 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not disagreeing that this predated Facebook. But the problem is that Facebook took this known vulnerability in human psychology and exploited it to the absolute max. The product has been meticulously engineered to push all your social acceptance buttons. It would have been possible to design a product that helped people gain awareness of and transcend the deep underlying insecurities that give rise to addictions of a…

Can Facebook be disrupted by the fentanyl of social networks?

Cute, but your analogy is somewhat flawed as fentanyl is like heroin on steroids. (As long as we’re mixing metaphors...)

What the world really needs is the naloxone of social networks.

Re: Facebook addiction linked to staking your self-worth on social acceptance

#80

Post by austincheney » Sun, Aug 19, 2018, 5:19 PM UTC

s-shellfish wrote: post #74

austincheney wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I encounter echo chambers here is what I see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformity It is the opposite of wanting to learn, explore, or be challenged. It is all about harmony and using people as numbers to wrap yourself in a warm comfort blanket of emotional protection and qualification. It is the very idea that an opinion is truth when it can be made popular or false if it can be demonized by a congregation,…

I agree, but this is the root of my dilemma from which my own understanding has grown. If I agree with you right here and now, have we not technically formed our own 'echo chamber'? Echo chambers from the outside look like inside out fishbowls because they are. But every set of agreeable statements, whether shared between individuals or distributed through time, same system - pieces are just labeled differently. Howe…

> If I agree with you right here and now, have we not technically formed our own 'echo chamber'?

Good point, but no.

Agreement is not necessarily an indication of conformance. You have to also consider to what degree that agreement, or disagreement, must be exercised. I agree and disagree with many political opinions, but I don't join groups who share my political opinions. My personal opinions often remain personal. Even if I did join a group of politically like-minded persons I would not go on regular protests to merely advertise my opinion. I certainly wouldn't take it to a higher level by going to a counter-protest or berating those I disagree with.

Typically the more important and advertised a social agreement becomes the less it is about the subject matter agreed upon and the more it is about exercising forced social norms of a group. In math and logic agreement is attained by a proof and not by some social pressure to force a predetermined outcome.