End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis • Hacker News Board

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#71

Post by barking » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:40 AM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #23

antouank wrote: post #10

> She wants to abolish Greek clientelism. Although every politician has promised this since taking office, none has succeeded. For centuries, the Greek administration was little more than an excuse for legal nepotism. Clientelism was the functional principle of society. Its roots reach into the Ottoman era, when clan leaders represented the Greeks to the Ottoman authorities, and they have continued to this day. Jobs…

Most of the world runs on patrongage, or 'clientism' as you call it. Most large corporations are like that and so are Western governments. 'Getting in the door' at an entry-level job in government or even in business ... there are rules here, and tech tends to be more 'skills based' as are startups. But after that you'd be surprised how many people have the jobs just because they think they deserve them. Clearly, an…

Then there's the other PIG, Ireland, fluctuating between boom and bust like a yoyo

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#72

Post by csomar » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:41 AM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #23

antouank wrote: post #10

> She wants to abolish Greek clientelism. Although every politician has promised this since taking office, none has succeeded. For centuries, the Greek administration was little more than an excuse for legal nepotism. Clientelism was the functional principle of society. Its roots reach into the Ottoman era, when clan leaders represented the Greeks to the Ottoman authorities, and they have continued to this day. Jobs…

Most of the world runs on patrongage, or 'clientism' as you call it. Most large corporations are like that and so are Western governments. 'Getting in the door' at an entry-level job in government or even in business ... there are rules here, and tech tends to be more 'skills based' as are startups. But after that you'd be surprised how many people have the jobs just because they think they deserve them. Clearly, an…

> Most of the world runs on patrongage, or 'clientism' as you call it. > Most large corporations are like that and so are Western governments.

As antouank explained. The difference is simply immense.

> Clearly, an illiterate person is not going to be the Director of whatever, but someone who is intelligent, a good communicator and politically suave can go very far.

This is where you get wrong. There are illiterate persons (as can't even write correctly or formulate sentences) holding high executives positions.

It is really a different world in the west. Yes, patronage is still here. But if you have skills, you still get a "shot". Sometimes two. You are granted no shots on these patronage-third-world-crap-holes.

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#73

Post by akvadrako » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:43 AM UTC

phobosdeimos wrote: post #55

antouank wrote: post #10

> She wants to abolish Greek clientelism. Although every politician has promised this since taking office, none has succeeded. For centuries, the Greek administration was little more than an excuse for legal nepotism. Clientelism was the functional principle of society. Its roots reach into the Ottoman era, when clan leaders represented the Greeks to the Ottoman authorities, and they have continued to this day. Jobs…

To be fair thats what makes Greece Greece. We could turn Greece, or in fact entire Southern Europe, into a new Denmark/Netherlands/Germany but do the people want to give up their identity and culture? When the ECB sent people to Athens to oversee the reforms they were not welcomed.

I agree completely. Greeks should be allowed to choose their own path even if it leads to ruin.

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#74

Post by csomar » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:44 AM UTC

arijo wrote: post #39

sonnyblarney wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the world runs on patrongage, or 'clientism' as you call it. Most large corporations are like that and so are Western governments. 'Getting in the door' at an entry-level job in government or even in business ... there are rules here, and tech tends to be more 'skills based' as are startups. But after that you'd be surprised how many people have the jobs just because they think they deserve them. Clearly, an…

Portugal's economy has been booming since 2015 - please resist the temptation of bad-mouthing Portugal before you understand more about it's current political, economical and social situation.

According to the GDP per capita, it just made it to a bit over the 2008 levels. Sure it has been growing since 2015 but only to make it to a level of 10 years ago.

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#75

Post by pjc50 » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:44 AM UTC

This is a country-sized version of a problem that has been seen a lot before: company towns where the company has left, or mono-industry towns where the industry has gone overseas. The big American example is Detroit.

There don't seem to be any easy solutions. Taxing the "winners" of economic growth to pay those who've lost out as a result sounds great but is impossible when they're not even in the same country.

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#76

Post by akvadrako » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:49 AM UTC

onli wrote: post #34

ekianjo wrote: post #21

> turned Greece into a different country. They turned themselves into a different country by borrowing Euros at German market interest rates while their previous interest rates for borrowing were at 16% before they joined the Eurozone. They lived way above their means for more than 10 years, what did they expect for a country that has virtually no industry?

That's neoliberal propaganda. 1. Greece did not live above it means. It did not have more debts than other countries in the EU zone, countries that did not crash 2. Greece would have been fine it it had not been forced to destroy its economy with an austerity program > They lived way above their means You probably are german, because that is a BILD/CDU slogan. It's very hard to qualify what that is supposed to mean.…

Actually you are correct - Greece's debt load is one of the lowest in Europe. The reason it looks high is propaganda; they are using an obsolete accounting method.

The modern standard is IPSAS or equivalents which consider what matters - the market value of the debt.

https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2016/06/09/2161851/what-if-greec...

http://english.capital.gr/News.asp?id=2321087

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#77

Post by 5ersi » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 10:08 AM UTC

onli wrote: post #34

ekianjo wrote: post #21

> turned Greece into a different country. They turned themselves into a different country by borrowing Euros at German market interest rates while their previous interest rates for borrowing were at 16% before they joined the Eurozone. They lived way above their means for more than 10 years, what did they expect for a country that has virtually no industry?

That's neoliberal propaganda. 1. Greece did not live above it means. It did not have more debts than other countries in the EU zone, countries that did not crash 2. Greece would have been fine it it had not been forced to destroy its economy with an austerity program > They lived way above their means You probably are german, because that is a BILD/CDU slogan. It's very hard to qualify what that is supposed to mean.…

Then your propaganda must be neo-communist.

Take a look at this graph (and read the article it comes from): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis#/...

1. After Greece entered Eurozone in 2001, their already large debt exploded. They had 4-14% yearly deficit - they clearly "lived way above their means".

2. In 2011 Greece themselves declared that they can no longer service their debt, e.g. they defaulted. In this sense they had "more debts than other countries in the EU zone" and they clearly would not "have been fine it it had not been forced to destroy its economy with an austerity program". If there was no bailout, they would default on their debts and their economy would totally collapse (think Venezuela style). This also goes against you claim that "[a county] can have too much debts. That wasn't the case here."

3. Greece government was until 2011 reporting fraudulent financial statistics in order to hide true extent of debt, also employing the help of international banks. Some actions were clearly fraudulent (cross currency swap at fictitious rates).

4. Greece asked other (mainly EU) countries to help her, the result was a massive reprogram of their debts (basically they got low interest rates and reprogrammed debts to 30-50 years, something you do not get at financial markets).

5. Greece negotiated a 50% "haircut" on debt owed to private banks in 2011, which amounted to a €100bn debt relief. Most affected were EU banks (Deutsche bank, BNP Paribas, etc..). So there were private entities that actually lost money on Greece. This pretty much dispels the claim that they were a victim of neoliberalists and/or capitalists.

6. Also, it's a totally false premise that a country can not "live above their means".

The leftist agenda has been to portray Greece as a victim of capitalism and/or neoliberalism. This was mostly dispelled by facts, and I rarely see this kind of propaganda in 2018.

The reality is that Greece put themselves in this situation and international community (especially EU) stepped way out of their way to help them, except offering them a massive write-off, which if happened, would be IMO a grave mistake.

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#78

Post by oblio » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 10:14 AM UTC

phobosdeimos wrote: post #55

antouank wrote: post #10

> She wants to abolish Greek clientelism. Although every politician has promised this since taking office, none has succeeded. For centuries, the Greek administration was little more than an excuse for legal nepotism. Clientelism was the functional principle of society. Its roots reach into the Ottoman era, when clan leaders represented the Greeks to the Ottoman authorities, and they have continued to this day. Jobs…

To be fair thats what makes Greece Greece. We could turn Greece, or in fact entire Southern Europe, into a new Denmark/Netherlands/Germany but do the people want to give up their identity and culture? When the ECB sent people to Athens to oversee the reforms they were not welcomed.

Corruption is never culture.

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#79

Post by ravingraven » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 10:53 AM UTC

Flavius wrote: post #12

ravingraven wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Imagine what even having 10 developers living in the village could do for its economy. I guarantee that this village has no internet (other than 3/4G with a data cap).

I don't know where you live, but in certain locations in Europe (villages, small cities) you can get decent internet. Unlimited 4G/5G is also gonna happen in a few years.

I currently live in Germany, but I am Greek and have lived in Greece for most of my life.

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#80

Post by deninho » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 11:00 AM UTC

jorvi wrote: post #57

ekianjo wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not German and I don't see why it would have anything to do with that. "Living about their means" is what happens when their debt levels grow exponentially: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-7KXHAuORi4w/TbS897oFTGI/AAAAAAAAA... in what world do you think this is sustainable? The US can get away with huge amount of debts because they have the dollar, which the most trusted international currency for virtually every commo…

Not to mention they literally asked Goldman-Sachs to help cook the books so they could qualify for joining the EU. I don't understand why people keep perpetuating this 'poor Greece is so innocent' myth. There was rabid government overspending, they literally defrauded the EU and they still got saved!

EU was not defrauded, since they admitted they knew how the books where altered.

On the other hand, do you know who didn't know nothing about it? Greek people, particularly young people who are now in their 20s and 30s, and can't find a job to live as proper human beings (>30% youth unemployment). Yet, you look like you enjoy this. I, just, wish you will never face something like that in your future.