Programming in the Adult Entertainment Industry Is Broken • Hacker News Board

Re: Programming in the Adult Entertainment Industry Is Broken

#71

Post by marikio » Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 12:37 PM UTC

There are a few companies/orgs trying to solve these issues:

https://www.iliac.io/

But porn doesn't have high margins. No one (except the large distributors like Mindgeek - Pornhub, Redtube, YouPorn) is making much money. Especially these small sites that are being built. After you subtract legal, production, performer fees you're left with almost nothing.

I worked in the Adult Industry for several years, but building tech for the industry wasn't financially stable for me so I had to leave. Still really passionate about the sex worker community though. Porn performers/activists are the kindest, sweetest, most intelligent group of folks I've ever worked with.

Maybe we can start a small group of engineers who want to discuss working through some solutions together. My email is hello@marik.io if anyone is interested.

Re: Programming in the Adult Entertainment Industry Is Broken

#72

Post by moneylaundering » Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 12:41 PM UTC

stef25 wrote: post #67

akanet wrote: post #14

This article is extremely alarming. The process the author is calling "cascade billing" is money laundering. This exact process of disguising the nature of transactions to get banking institutions to transfer funds is literally what the feds took down Backpage for recently. I am very familiar with the details of that case and am surprised to see someone be so cavalier with the details publicly. Many adult services pr…

Buy a t-shirt and get access to my members only blog / porn site. I can see how it's against the rules of the payment provider but this wouldn't be fraud would it?

The elements for federal and state money laundering charges would be there. Lying to a bank, in a tri-partite merchant account agreement, email, or phone call, and then obtaining services from that bank, can come down on you as bank fraud, wire fraud, or mail fraud. Once you’re buttoned up on fraud, subsequent transfers of funds can be charged as money laundering. This is true for most states and under federal law.

In a hypothetical scenario where I saw this occurring, I would look for emails, texts, etc where you admit that you actually intend to sell memberships, and the T-shirt sales are merely to obtain payment processing services to get the fraud charges up.

Then I’d rack up the dollar amounts against you under money laundering statutes and stack them so you’d be looking at some pretty major prison time.

All this over selling some T-shirts to get a payment processor for your adult site? You bet! I’m working on very similar cases now.

Re: Programming in the Adult Entertainment Industry Is Broken

#73

Post by karmakaze » Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 12:41 PM UTC

I wasn't sure about the heading and was hoping this was about general content for adults being broken. I dont think I'm getting smarter faster but the content is going down fast. That's what's great here expect one thing, learn another.

Re: Programming in the Adult Entertainment Industry Is Broken

#74

Post by moneylaundering » Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 12:48 PM UTC

akanet wrote: post #63

bumholio wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should carefully read your quote - it includes the word "Backpage" four times, as in the illegal source of funds that created the laundry opportunity . Breach of contract with payment processors is certainly NOT wire fraud by itself, that's an absurd statement.

You're weirdly stuck on this "breach of contract superseding federal crimes" thing but uh, I don't know what to tell you. This scheme is clearly wire fraud. Defrauding a payment processor out of money, over wires, is wire fraud. It's also bank fraud when you lie to your bank about what your merchant account is for, which is another prerequisite for these schemes usually.

He is correct. This is how I build my cases.

I would just be aware that any interaction with the financial system can quickly become criminal. Whether it does depends on a whole range of factors, but the option is always there. (Incidentally, the same goes for insurance companies. Can go criminal at any time.)

Re: Programming in the Adult Entertainment Industry Is Broken

#75

Post by moneylaundering » Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 12:51 PM UTC

SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #41

caruana wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are selling content through different payment services, this is not money laundering, stop being an alarmist. "the concealment of the origins of illegally obtained money, typically by means of transfers involving foreign banks or legitimate businesses" Illegally obtained money being they key term! > literally what the feds took down Backpage for recently. Also, incorrect. Backpage was taken down because they fac…

I wouldn't say that money needs to be "illegally obtained" to be classified as laundered. There are tax benefits to "laundering" legally obtained money, for example. Although at this point we're just arguing semantics.

Oversimplified version of most statutes:

It has to be transferred AND (1)illegally obtained, or (2)intended for an illegal purpose, or (3)disguised and international but not in any way illegal.

Re: Programming in the Adult Entertainment Industry Is Broken

#76

Post by TheCoelacanth » Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 12:58 PM UTC

vortico wrote: post #44

Rjevski wrote: post #23

Seems like cryptocurrencies would be the way to go for this.

Yes, definitely. I barely use Bitcoins or other cryptocurrencies at all (because USD works great for everything I do), but cryptocurrencies are perfect for this industry because they are - fast enough. 15 minutes to validate a transaction is sufficient for a porn site. - as certain as wiring money. There's no chance a customer can force money back from you once paid. - anonymous. Your wife won't find out in a bank st…

> anonymous. Your wife won't find out in a bank statement, so less chance of "fake-angry" customers trying to force money back.

Right, she'll think you're buying drugs instead when she sees the charge for cryptocurrency.

Re: Programming in the Adult Entertainment Industry Is Broken

#77

Post by mrweasel » Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 1:00 PM UTC

bumholio wrote: post #31

LarryL wrote: post #17

The title of the article is misleading, it's not programming that is the real issue, it's billing (the progamming issues are just a part in the article). Since the Credit Card companies & banks create lots of problems as soon as sex is involved (see FetLife's misadventures in HN previous articles for instance) in addition to the big chargebacks issue, and given that customers lie a lot (because they can), I think tha…

The problem with this approach, and the related proposals like 3D Secure and Bitcoin, is precisely that it puts a low ceiling on what the site is allowed to charge to exactly what the customer is willing to spend on porn. The bread and butter of porn and most other internet subscription models is to get hold of the consumer credit card data and then setup a long run recurring payment stream, on the expectation that w…

I don't think I understand the issue with using 3D Secure, or Verified by VISA. It's something customers are already accustom when shopping online. You're buying a high risk item, from the perspective of the sell, similarly to downloadable content, or high price electronics. Solution like 3D Secure seems ideal in this case.

Companies like Stripe could easily say: Yes, we do accept payments for adult sites, but 3D Secure will be enabled on all purchases. I don't think that would scare of more customer than bouncing them between multiple payment provides and seeing the their payment reject multiple times.

Re: Programming in the Adult Entertainment Industry Is Broken

#78

Post by neoform » Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 1:05 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #4

The big "legit" payment provider is cc-bill. The "tube" sites are more exploitative than the rest of the industry in that they don't actually pay the performers, they're simply piracy, and because small independent producers don't have the political leverage to impose an equivalent of content-ID on them they stay that way.

As someone who works for a large tube site, you're entirely wrong. We pay a lot of money to people who upload content.

Re: Programming in the Adult Entertainment Industry Is Broken

#79

Post by sincerely » Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 1:07 PM UTC

skykooler wrote: post #70

scarface74 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All prepaid cards are anonymous. You pay for the card with cash.

Last time I bought a prepaid card (I believe it was Visa), to register it I had to be looked up in the credit card database. As I did not have a credit card at the time (hence buying the prepaid card), I was not in the database, so they would not sell me the card.

Where do you live?

Re: Programming in the Adult Entertainment Industry Is Broken

#80

Post by sincerely » Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 1:08 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #4

The big "legit" payment provider is cc-bill. The "tube" sites are more exploitative than the rest of the industry in that they don't actually pay the performers, they're simply piracy, and because small independent producers don't have the political leverage to impose an equivalent of content-ID on them they stay that way.

arent the tube sites owned by the same people that own the content production studios?