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Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

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Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#71
post #59
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google's situation is similar to many American authors' experience when confronted with the choice of 1) not publishing in China. and 2) publishing a censored version of their book. The decision is not an easy one, even for those who support freedom of information. Those who deem Google's actions unethical often fail to realize that without Google or foreign books, Chinese internet users and readers will have less ac…

There is a very simple and clear line, actually. The moment you have to write a single line of code to specifically enable political censorship, you're complicit in it. Such as in this case, where they're not just talking about e.g. taking down links in search results when asked, but inserting new code into the entire Android software stack, or even writing new apps outright, to enable such censorship. And yes, of co…

> but inserting new code into the entire Android software stack, or even writing new apps outright, to enable such censorship.

Let's not forget Apple already has done this with iOS. It's just worth mentioning that this isn't Google-specific.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#72

These US corporate elites are selling out US and the rest of the democratic free world in order to meet shareholder's expectations (and of course, MONEY!). And giving into a dictatorship and giving that dictatorship jobs, money, capital, knowledge, and power. That dictatorship now has imprisoned close to 1 million people in Xinjiang. Shame on you, Sundar Pichai. At least when Google was lead by Erich Schmidt, Google…

> That dictatorship now has imprisoned close to 1 million people in Xinjiang.

Sources please? Xinjiang is not that big, they have 20mm people in total, 1mm will be fractional big enough to make the street appear more empty...

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#73
post #21
post #2

It's really unfortunate that abiding by local laws and regulations is considered unethical. But even if we assume that there is no legal way for a company to operate ethically in China, is the world meant to close our borders to them entirely? 20% of the planet lives there and we do business with China every day when we buy something manufactured there, but do not feel morally required to boycott them on account of t…

Google's situation is similar to many American authors' experience when confronted with the choice of 1) not publishing in China. and 2) publishing a censored version of their book. The decision is not an easy one, even for those who support freedom of information. Those who deem Google's actions unethical often fail to realize that without Google or foreign books, Chinese internet users and readers will have less ac…

> portraying limitations in other countries in a way that celebrates our own values.

This rings very true to me. Like others have commented in this thread, google is unethical because "they are disrupting the foundations of democracy by abiding by totalitarian rules" as if democracy is the one True form of governance.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#74

These US corporate elites are selling out US and the rest of the democratic free world in order to meet shareholder's expectations (and of course, MONEY!). And giving into a dictatorship and giving that dictatorship jobs, money, capital, knowledge, and power. That dictatorship now has imprisoned close to 1 million people in Xinjiang. Shame on you, Sundar Pichai. At least when Google was lead by Erich Schmidt, Google…

> That dictatorship now has imprisoned close to 1 million people in Xinjiang. Sources please? Xinjiang is not that big, they have 20mm people in total, 1mm will be fractional big enough to make the street appear more empty...

[deleted]

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#75
post #45

At the risk of sounding nationalistic, I think companies in the United States and other democratic countries should reconsider any and all business relationships with authoritarian regimes like those in China and Russia. And I say regimes because most "companies" in these countries are really just instruments of the state. There may be money to be made, but not only are companies like Google tightening these authorit…

> At the risk of sounding nationalistic, I think companies in the United States and other democratic countries should reconsider any and all business relationships with authoritarian regimes like those in China and Russia.

FWIW, that's the opposite of "nationalistic". Nationalism means that the highest principle is your nation's benefit; people suffering and dying in other nations, including at your hands, is not important. For example, current U.S. nationalists advocate ignoring human rights abuses in other countries in order to make more money for U.S. businesses (former Secretary of State and former Exxon CEO Rex Tillerson openly advocated this policy).

You are advocating the reverse: the U.S. and other democracies should forgo business interests in order to help people in other countries.

I agree, but only when those measures are effective. FWIW, it turns out that using these economic tools is tricky; it's hard to get desired outcomes. First, beware of politicians offering something for nothing - we want to act against this country, but we don't want to pay or risk anything (significant money or the lives of soldiers); there's no free lunch - you'll get out what you put in. North Korea and Cuba, for example, survive under sanctions for generations and the only consequence has been harm to the non-elite in their countries; North Korea even managed to build nuclear weapons and ICBMs; Iran built nukes and is working on the missiles. Second, if you use the 'blunt' tool and eliminate all business activity, then you tend hurt the people you are trying to help: The common people lose jobs, homes, food, etc.; he powerful elite hoard the money for themselves; look at North Korea for an example. One solution is to apply sanctions directly to the elite in ways that won't affect others (e.g., block them from traveling or making financial transactions outside their country, sanction their businesses directly, etc.); this was used against Iran to significant effect, AFAIK, and is used against Russia. Finally, when you use the 'take my ball and go home' tactic, you lose further leverage over the other party - if you aren't doing business with them, why should they care what you think about the problem that arises next year? Staying engaged is very important for diplomatic leverage.

EDIT: A bunch of edits.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#76
post #45

At the risk of sounding nationalistic, I think companies in the United States and other democratic countries should reconsider any and all business relationships with authoritarian regimes like those in China and Russia. And I say regimes because most "companies" in these countries are really just instruments of the state. There may be money to be made, but not only are companies like Google tightening these authorit…

I don't think it's nationalistic, I think it's a war of fundamental values.

The Chinese Communists put control above truth. The Western World puts truth above control. The most powerful law of the most powerful Western nation enshrines as it's First Amendment the unlawfulness of force restraining speech.

For the sake of further discussion, let me set aside the moral argument, and pretend that stable human civilization demands compartmentalization of history. Maybe we do need a "Grey File" of forbidden knowledge to prevent the proles from becoming unhappy with their lot.

Here's the operational, the pragmatic problem with that: You have to control the whole story or you risk societal schizophrenia. What is the Chinese tourist to do when eventually exposed to the truth? There are two choices: instantly become at least partially a rebel -or- cognitive dissonance: go a bit insane and reject the real world in favor of the consensus reality. Rebellion or insanity.

Unless of course the airlines agree to say the right thing about Taiwan on their websites, then everything will be fine.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#77

These US corporate elites are selling out US and the rest of the democratic free world in order to meet shareholder's expectations (and of course, MONEY!). And giving into a dictatorship and giving that dictatorship jobs, money, capital, knowledge, and power. That dictatorship now has imprisoned close to 1 million people in Xinjiang. Shame on you, Sundar Pichai. At least when Google was lead by Erich Schmidt, Google…

> That dictatorship now has imprisoned close to 1 million people in Xinjiang. Sources please? Xinjiang is not that big, they have 20mm people in total, 1mm will be fractional big enough to make the street appear more empty...

“The first thing you notice is the quiet. Then the white strips of paper stretched diagonally across the front doors of stores that look like they were vacated in a hurry. Once you get close enough, you can read the painted serial numbers on the house walls — WB-BUK 1 to 15 on one street — that tell you no one is coming back to these homes, and that many of those who lived there have been detained.

Welcome to Xinjiang in China’s north west.”

One of many such reports.

https://www.ft.com/content/ac0ffb2e-8b36-11e8-b18d-0181731a0...

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#78

These US corporate elites are selling out US and the rest of the democratic free world in order to meet shareholder's expectations (and of course, MONEY!). And giving into a dictatorship and giving that dictatorship jobs, money, capital, knowledge, and power. That dictatorship now has imprisoned close to 1 million people in Xinjiang. Shame on you, Sundar Pichai. At least when Google was lead by Erich Schmidt, Google…

> That dictatorship now has imprisoned close to 1 million people in Xinjiang. Sources please? Xinjiang is not that big, they have 20mm people in total, 1mm will be fractional big enough to make the street appear more empty...

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/10/world/asia/china-xinjiang...

"U.N. Panel Confronts China Over Reports That It Holds a Million Uighurs in Camps"

Twenty seconds on a search engine...

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#79
"It’s also one thing to respect local customs and laws, and another to actively implement them, as Google will be doing."

I failed to understand what the author is trying to get at here. If there's a local law that means a company must collect sales tax from consumers, on behalf of he state, and remit the collected money to the state, then would the author consider that 'respecting' local laws, or 'actively implementing' them?

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#80
post #42

What's the difference between Google adopting Chinese regulations in China and Google adopting GDPR regulations in Europe?

When a company does something good for human rights and civilization, we say "Good." When they do something bad for human rights and civilization, we say "Bad." What's the deal with pretending that laws are ethically neutral?

Is Google doing something bad for human rights and civilization?
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