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You Cannot Serve Two Masters: The Harms of Dual Affiliation

argmin.net

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Re: You Cannot Serve Two Masters: The Harms of Dual Affiliation

#71
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The worst professors were completely clueless because they never worked with a large computer program in their life. Seems like what you needed was a trade school. Maybe having a degree from a more prestigious university helped you get an initial job, but in terms of the things you were actually looking for, that's trade school stuff and barely overlaps with Computer Science.

This is a problem on so many levels. The evolution of, management of and use of large computer programs over a long period is pretty well unstudied. And yet 100's of millions of people have to use these things every day. The programming methods used by practioners (and now taught in the Ivy league) have been developed by folk science, and are not rigorous in any way I can think of. The Academy has failed in these two…

I actually agree with your separation of Software Engineering and Computer Science comment, but completely disagree with the funding level statement. The notion that branches of Mathematics don't use computer resources is absolutely laughable. If anything, I don't see why the best practices for managing people who are developing the same CRUD apps over and over again needs any significant investment of any kind besides a few laptops. Computer Science can not and should not give a shit about development practices like Agile or its alternatives. CS people do own a lot of problems facing industry like machine learning and AI, and they address plenty of problems "in the core"...just nothing to do with process.

Also, this split absolutely does happen at some universities, and the funding is decided by agencies based on their priorities. One such university is the University of Waterloo, and the CS department is not wanting for funding...certainly not at the buy a whiteboard and get on with it levels you're suggesting.

Re: You Cannot Serve Two Masters: The Harms of Dual Affiliation

#72
post #71
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a problem on so many levels. The evolution of, management of and use of large computer programs over a long period is pretty well unstudied. And yet 100's of millions of people have to use these things every day. The programming methods used by practioners (and now taught in the Ivy league) have been developed by folk science, and are not rigorous in any way I can think of. The Academy has failed in these two…

I actually agree with your separation of Software Engineering and Computer Science comment, but completely disagree with the funding level statement. The notion that branches of Mathematics don't use computer resources is absolutely laughable. If anything, I don't see why the best practices for managing people who are developing the same CRUD apps over and over again needs any significant investment of any kind besid…

>The notion that branches of Mathematics don't use computer resources is absolutely laughable.

The best right out of school sysadmins I've seen were failed physicists. Apparently they run some moderately large stuff.

Re: You Cannot Serve Two Masters: The Harms of Dual Affiliation

#73

Our government, and moreso, our society through cultural and government apathy has devalued anything academic that does not produce material gains - capital, wealth, patents, etc. I fear that the total commercialisation of academia means that we are unlikely to see meaningful material gains for society in terms of new cures to disease or technology advances outside of those that can be monetised for recurring revenue…

It's a problem, sure... but the problem is that we're not funding schools. If we spent some tax dollars on our education system, academia would be more independent from business, and could focus more on the sorts of long-term and difficult-to-monitize research that business is not so great at.

Re: You Cannot Serve Two Masters: The Harms of Dual Affiliation

#74
post #71
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a problem on so many levels. The evolution of, management of and use of large computer programs over a long period is pretty well unstudied. And yet 100's of millions of people have to use these things every day. The programming methods used by practioners (and now taught in the Ivy league) have been developed by folk science, and are not rigorous in any way I can think of. The Academy has failed in these two…

I actually agree with your separation of Software Engineering and Computer Science comment, but completely disagree with the funding level statement. The notion that branches of Mathematics don't use computer resources is absolutely laughable. If anything, I don't see why the best practices for managing people who are developing the same CRUD apps over and over again needs any significant investment of any kind besid…

I think that there is a conflation that needs sorting out. Mathematicians and Physicists may need funding at a high level, they may deserve it in a philosophical and natural justice sense as well. Computer Science argues for (and gets) high levels of funding by asserting economic rationales for funding with a justification that physics and maths struggle to match. My view is that if we are talking about the SE side of the shop then this is rational and fine, but if we are talking about theoretical CS which (tragically) effectively includes much of the database, programming language and methodology community, and much of the AI and ML community too, then this is a misallocation of capital.

In terms of CRUD apps - my jaw is on the floor... Don't you care about the harm that is inflicted on the people doing the development, their victims (everyone) and the reputation of the infrastructure that they create? What about voting machines? Compulsory XKCD link : https://www.xkcd.com/2030/

I think that the lofty disregard is fine - just don't go arguing for grant funding on the basis of real world impact.

On AI and ML - where is the work that will enable methods to be actually managed in the wild? How come the estimates of performance based on the methodologies of testing from academia are so woeful? Why has the academy been content with "it provides 94% TP in test with 99% confidence but when we ran it in production it gave us about 80% after review"!

Re: You Cannot Serve Two Masters: The Harms of Dual Affiliation

#75
post #72
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually agree with your separation of Software Engineering and Computer Science comment, but completely disagree with the funding level statement. The notion that branches of Mathematics don't use computer resources is absolutely laughable. If anything, I don't see why the best practices for managing people who are developing the same CRUD apps over and over again needs any significant investment of any kind besid…

>The notion that branches of Mathematics don't use computer resources is absolutely laughable. The best right out of school sysadmins I've seen were failed physicists. Apparently they run some moderately large stuff.

I had a really good one work for me - but he went off back to physics so that he could play with a real computer!

Re: You Cannot Serve Two Masters: The Harms of Dual Affiliation

#76
post #47
post #36

Why does "faculty working elsewhere mean cancelled classes" - if the faculty is paid for 100% by facebook, but works 20% at the university does this not mean that the students receive a bonus teacher? Is there no scope for enrichment of computer science by industry? And what is "academic computer science"? I mean, look down at your keyboard - nothing in computer science is purely academic; it's the most applied of do…

Working 80% for Facebook basically precludes the time commitment for teaching classes.

As per many other comments - doing admin and applying for grants takes up ~80% of normal academic time - and yet classes get taught.

Re: You Cannot Serve Two Masters: The Harms of Dual Affiliation

#77
post #76
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working 80% for Facebook basically precludes the time commitment for teaching classes.

As per many other comments - doing admin and applying for grants takes up ~80% of normal academic time - and yet classes get taught.

So I'm actually a professor. And while admin and grants is a lot of my day, they're built into the assumptions of having an academic appointment. We know. Packing all of your university-related duties into 20% of your time? That means classes won't get taught.

Re: You Cannot Serve Two Masters: The Harms of Dual Affiliation

#78
post #74
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually agree with your separation of Software Engineering and Computer Science comment, but completely disagree with the funding level statement. The notion that branches of Mathematics don't use computer resources is absolutely laughable. If anything, I don't see why the best practices for managing people who are developing the same CRUD apps over and over again needs any significant investment of any kind besid…

I think that there is a conflation that needs sorting out. Mathematicians and Physicists may need funding at a high level, they may deserve it in a philosophical and natural justice sense as well. Computer Science argues for (and gets) high levels of funding by asserting economic rationales for funding with a justification that physics and maths struggle to match. My view is that if we are talking about the SE side o…

> Computer Science argues for (and gets) high levels of funding by asserting economic rationales for funding with a justification that physics and maths struggle to match.

Every single grant application makes (often bogus) economic rationale for its puported benefits to society and the economy. The trope in mathematics is that everything is relevant for either cryptography or protein folding.

> theoretical CS which (tragically) effectively includes much of the database, programming language and methodology community, and much of the AI and ML community too, then this is a misallocation of capital

You may not accept it but there is a whole bunch of very theoretical mathematical work that goes on in AI and ML. There is a whole bunch of work that is more empirically grounded and less whiteboard as well. There is a whole spectrum on the whiteboard to deployed-in-the-real-world. That is why there are often Applied Physics programs, different from Physics programs, different from Engineering programs. And people in each of those have varying levels of overlaps with each other based on where they sit on the theoretical-applied spectrum.

> Don't you care about the harm that is inflicted on the people doing the development, their victims (everyone) and the reputation of the infrastructure that they create? What about voting machines?

I never said anything about not caring - this is a silly red herring. I was making a statement about the computational resources needed to solve people and project management issues in software engineering as a counter to your "just give them some whiteboards" comment. I still don't see why throwing more cloud compute resources at Software Engineering departments will make your Scrum meetings more efficient. In fact I don't know if academia is well-poised to solve such problems at all.

> arguing for grant funding on the basis of real world impact

The idea behind funding the sciences in academia is that we fund research that may have long-term impact on society. You don't get to throw a fit because every problem you have at work isn't being solved by someone sitting in a university.

> the estimates of performance based on the methodologies of testing from academia are so woeful?

Are you claiming that every experiment that comes out of a physics lab works flawlessly out in the real world? Or every paper from a life science lab goes on to successfully become a new medical treatment? I mentioned it before but there are often several fields of study dedicated to just taking highly controlled results from labs and trying to get them to work in the real world. Not everything makes it (especially in the life sciences example). AI/ML are at least better in that they often (but they should be doing it even more) give you what you need to replicate the lab experiment on the controlled, sanitized data.

Re: You Cannot Serve Two Masters: The Harms of Dual Affiliation

#79
post #76
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working 80% for Facebook basically precludes the time commitment for teaching classes.

As per many other comments - doing admin and applying for grants takes up ~80% of normal academic time - and yet classes get taught.

Ok - let's say that the departmental budget for professors is $1m, and you pay $100k to fund 10 professors, who then teach 50 classes. All is well.

Now, one of these professors announces that Facebook will pay them $500k instead, but they will allow 20% of time at the university, and will pay you $50k

Now you have $150k, and 1 class per year already in the bank. You need to find 4 more classes taught, and by spending $120k you are able to do that, you also have $30k for TAs.

Re: You Cannot Serve Two Masters: The Harms of Dual Affiliation

#80
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's trivial to structure grants (or indeed contracts) such that they have concrete deliverables, even for academic research.

I think the moment a 'grant' has concrete deliverables (to a private firm?) it ceases being a grant and starts being some kind of consulting. I think people try to do this around ucla pretty often i.e. (I give a professor money -they do the research- I keep the IP)- it is pretty frowned upon in that context. In ML and CS I think this is probably more kosher-Michael Kearns seems to have a pretty thriving consultancy.

DARPA structures a lot of its research funding like this. The 'award' is a contract, typically for data, models, etc. For example, the statement of work for my last project has about a dozen deliverables of the form "tabulated data comparing [outcome] against [experimental variable 1], [exp. variable 2], ...." or "a computational model relating...." As far as I can tell, they are not actually interested in the data itself; this is just a hack to use the procurement process to fund research. They were happy to let the researchers keep and share the data.

In theory, the contract structure seems a lot more limited than an NIH, NSF, etc. grant, where you are minimally constrained by the proposal, but in practice, the program managers seem willing to amend the contract so that no one collects a bunch of obviously useless data.

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