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Association between physical exercise and mental health: a cross-sectional study

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Re: Association between physical exercise and mental health: a cross-sectional study

#71

Post by jessriedel »

vanderZwan wrote: post #65
jessriedel wrote: post #4

This was a cross-sectional study. Here's an opposing result for anxiety and depression: > Testing Causality in the Association Between Regular Exercise and Symptoms of Anxiety and Depression > Context: In the population at large, regular exercise is associated with reduced anxious and depressive symptoms. Results of experimental studies in clinical populations suggest a causal effect of exercise on anxiety and depres…

The thing is, since a few we actually know now how exercise helps: it builds resilience against depression[0][1]. The press release from the Karolinska Instituted website[2] explains it fairly well, but in short: when you're stressed, you produce kynurenine. How kynurenine works precisely is unknown, but what is clear is that having chronically elevated levels of it can induce all kinds of mental illnesses. Skeletal…

That theory would seem to contradict the study I cited, no?

Both papers you cite are by the same group, and I don't think the results represent a consensus of the experts.

Re: Association between physical exercise and mental health: a cross-sectional study

#72

Post by trollopTheJope »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #38
raverbashing wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most people associate "physical exercise" with having to spend an hour at the gym or something similar. What they should be thinking is: going for a walk around the block, not getting the car for close by errands, not taking the elevator, going for a bike ride, etc

See, this is some of my own problem. I personally despise going for a walk for the sake of going for a walk. The same for a bike ride. The only times I've enjoyed such things is when part of my unhappiness was at home and it was one of the few escapes available. I don't find these fun at all. Doing actual exercise sounds dreadful and embarrassing. Not to mention that finding basic gear is expensive and hard to find (…

Walking isn't exercise. Not surprised you don't mind walking to the grocery store.

Re: Association between physical exercise and mental health: a cross-sectional study

#73

Post by ralusek »

duxup wrote: post #41
jessriedel wrote: post #4

This was a cross-sectional study. Here's an opposing result for anxiety and depression: > Testing Causality in the Association Between Regular Exercise and Symptoms of Anxiety and Depression > Context: In the population at large, regular exercise is associated with reduced anxious and depressive symptoms. Results of experimental studies in clinical populations suggest a causal effect of exercise on anxiety and depres…

That and I wonder if there is a spiraling sort of effect where if you have mental health issues you might feel tired as it is, so you don't exercise.... but I'm not sure that means that the exercise is the issue... just the result. Let alone populations like the working poor who have little time in their lives for things like exercise, but growing mental illness issues.

Mood-changing exercise can take as little as 3 minutes. If I do 2 minutes of jumping jacks and 30 pushups in the morning, my day is dramatically different.

Saying that "the poor don't have time for exercise" reminds me of a similar, harmful claim that "the poor can't afford to eat healthily." Bag of kale is $2, massive bag of spinach is $4, massive bag of carrots is $3, bag of of onions is $5, massive bag of potatoes is $5...

When asked about their obesity, many poor have responded with that same idea, that "healthy food is expensive." It's important to recognize that simply saying things repeatedly at a societal level is enough to actually negatively impact the people it was meant to defend.

Re: Association between physical exercise and mental health: a cross-sectional study

#74

Post by duxup »

ralusek wrote: post #73
duxup wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That and I wonder if there is a spiraling sort of effect where if you have mental health issues you might feel tired as it is, so you don't exercise.... but I'm not sure that means that the exercise is the issue... just the result. Let alone populations like the working poor who have little time in their lives for things like exercise, but growing mental illness issues.

Mood-changing exercise can take as little as 3 minutes. If I do 2 minutes of jumping jacks and 30 pushups in the morning, my day is dramatically different. Saying that "the poor don't have time for exercise" reminds me of a similar, harmful claim that "the poor can't afford to eat healthily." Bag of kale is $2, massive bag of spinach is $4, massive bag of carrots is $3, bag of of onions is $5, massive bag of potatoes…

The working poor certainly don't have a lot of time... that's not a myth.

Pretending it must be like some other issue is not helpful, just as you describe the other issue.

Re: Association between physical exercise and mental health: a cross-sectional study

#75

Post by vanderZwan »

jessriedel wrote: post #71
vanderZwan wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, since a few we actually know now how exercise helps: it builds resilience against depression[0][1]. The press release from the Karolinska Instituted website[2] explains it fairly well, but in short: when you're stressed, you produce kynurenine. How kynurenine works precisely is unknown, but what is clear is that having chronically elevated levels of it can induce all kinds of mental illnesses. Skeletal…

That theory would seem to contradict the study I cited, no? Both papers you cite are by the same group, and I don't think the results represent a consensus of the experts.

Not necessarily: in another study it was shown that kynurenine levels went back to original levels in patients who only exercised[0].

> Conclusions: Physical exercise positively affects mood and cardiovascular fitness, but does not lead to long-lasting changes in plasma levels of kynurenine and KYNA in patients affected by mild-to-moderate depression.

So that would suggest that the body just reaches a new equilibrium. Again, the point is that resilience does not fix causes - it could be that this is similar to trying to fix traffic jams with more roads; the only real fix is to get rid of the cars as much as you can (after which having an extra lane can make traffic go smoother).

> Both papers you cite are by the same group, and I don't think the results represent a consensus of the experts.

IIRC, that kynurenine does something is apparently well-established, and not just by this group. Also, that first paper has quite a few citations, you can check for follow-up research on Google Scholar[1]

[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5384718/

[1] https://scholar.google.de/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=Skele...

Re: Association between physical exercise and mental health: a cross-sectional study

#76

Post by DanBC »

ralusek wrote: post #73
duxup wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That and I wonder if there is a spiraling sort of effect where if you have mental health issues you might feel tired as it is, so you don't exercise.... but I'm not sure that means that the exercise is the issue... just the result. Let alone populations like the working poor who have little time in their lives for things like exercise, but growing mental illness issues.

Mood-changing exercise can take as little as 3 minutes. If I do 2 minutes of jumping jacks and 30 pushups in the morning, my day is dramatically different. Saying that "the poor don't have time for exercise" reminds me of a similar, harmful claim that "the poor can't afford to eat healthily." Bag of kale is $2, massive bag of spinach is $4, massive bag of carrots is $3, bag of of onions is $5, massive bag of potatoes…

> Mood-changing exercise can take as little as 3 minutes. If I do 2 minutes of jumping jacks and 30 pushups in the morning, my day is dramatically different.

You know this is what homeopaths claim, right?

Re: Association between physical exercise and mental health: a cross-sectional study

#77

Post by DanBC »

markroseman wrote: post #6
jessriedel wrote: post #4

This was a cross-sectional study. Here's an opposing result for anxiety and depression: > Testing Causality in the Association Between Regular Exercise and Symptoms of Anxiety and Depression > Context: In the population at large, regular exercise is associated with reduced anxious and depressive symptoms. Results of experimental studies in clinical populations suggest a causal effect of exercise on anxiety and depres…

Few academics stake their careers on papers saying that X does fuck all (unless everyone already things X is amazingly effective)

Cochrane Collaborations.

https://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depr...

> Exercise is moderately more effective than no therapy for reducing symptoms of depression.

[...]

> The reviewers also note that when only high-quality studies were included, the difference between exercise and no therapy is less conclusive.

Re: Association between physical exercise and mental health: a cross-sectional study

#78

Post by DanBC »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #2

This is sure to quickly fill with personal anecdotes, I can attest to experiencing this phenomena myself, but I wonder what we can do with this information? I think it's already in the "everybody knows" category, so how do we get those who need it the most to take advantage of it? The extreme presentation of these conditions typically impedes one from becoming physically active, thought I do look forward to the succe…

> I think it's already in the "everybody knows" category,

No, it isn't. It's in the folk remedy, but there's not much evidence to support exercise as a treatment for depression.

Re: Association between physical exercise and mental health: a cross-sectional study

#79

Post by smileypete »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #38
raverbashing wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most people associate "physical exercise" with having to spend an hour at the gym or something similar. What they should be thinking is: going for a walk around the block, not getting the car for close by errands, not taking the elevator, going for a bike ride, etc

See, this is some of my own problem. I personally despise going for a walk for the sake of going for a walk. The same for a bike ride. The only times I've enjoyed such things is when part of my unhappiness was at home and it was one of the few escapes available. I don't find these fun at all. Doing actual exercise sounds dreadful and embarrassing. Not to mention that finding basic gear is expensive and hard to find (…

I like walking to town though the park and listening to a good podcast (through the phone's speaker, I don't bother with headphones.)

Also sometimes when I've spent time indoors on the PC/internet I realize that sitting outside with a book would have been better.

I s'pose that access to nearby walking routes and some sort of garden can be a big help here and I'm lucky in that respect.

Re: Association between physical exercise and mental health: a cross-sectional study

#80

Post by tryitnow »

jessriedel wrote: post #4

This was a cross-sectional study. Here's an opposing result for anxiety and depression: > Testing Causality in the Association Between Regular Exercise and Symptoms of Anxiety and Depression > Context: In the population at large, regular exercise is associated with reduced anxious and depressive symptoms. Results of experimental studies in clinical populations suggest a causal effect of exercise on anxiety and depres…

Thanks for providing this study.

This reminds me of the Iron Law of Evaluation:

https://www.gwern.net/docs/sociology/1987-rossi

The Iron Law refers social program interventions but I think it is applicable to a lot of health interventions too.

https://www.gwern.net/docs/sociology/1987-rossi

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