Young people don’t want construction jobs • Hacker News Board

Re: Young people don’t want construction jobs

#71

Post by seanalltogether » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 4:01 PM UTC

49531 wrote: post #52

godzillabrennus wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over the last 40 years the trades also had influx of illegal immigrants entering the profession. These have been folks who were willing to do the very difficult work for less pay and no recourse if the conditions were unsafe. Obviously not all trades as most firms won’t gamble using unlicensed electricians and plumbers. On the other hand roofing, drywall, concrete, etc... have been more readily given to folks who wor…

Which I would argue is only possible _because_ unions have mostly disintegrated. Scabs are a lot harder to hire, especially illegal immigrant scabs, if there's a union around to hold the company accountable.

I live in a new build neighborhood that's been under construction for the last 5 years or so. For the 24 houses in my circle I've seen countless workers come and go and 4 changeovers in foremen, all voluntarily. How would you possibly unionize such a setup?

Re: Young people don’t want construction jobs

#72

Post by CydeWeys » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 4:05 PM UTC

seanalltogether wrote: post #71

49531 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which I would argue is only possible _because_ unions have mostly disintegrated. Scabs are a lot harder to hire, especially illegal immigrant scabs, if there's a union around to hold the company accountable.

I live in a new build neighborhood that's been under construction for the last 5 years or so. For the 24 houses in my circle I've seen countless workers come and go and 4 changeovers in foremen, all voluntarily. How would you possibly unionize such a setup?

Unionize the entire sector. This approach works well in many EU nations and used to work here too.

Re: Young people don’t want construction jobs

#73

Post by Bluecobra » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 4:05 PM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #22

What's the endgame for construction workers? Everyone can't move into management. Many people's bodies can't handle that kind of manual labor for 40 years, and even if they could construction jobs tend to be insecure. If you want people to make those trade offs you have to pay more. This kind of rhetoric from companies drives me nuts. They push to remove regulations, but when the free market says they have to pay mor…

Maybe it would be something like Tesla's model (highly automated assembly line) but for homes. Manufactured homes have been around for a long time but it's not cool. I would buy a eco-friendly modular home if were awesome.

Re: Young people don’t want construction jobs

#74

Post by CydeWeys » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 4:07 PM UTC

greenhatman wrote: post #56

49531 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that stigmatizing trades has contributed to this issue, but we've also simultaneously made trades worse by allowing their unions to decay and be deregulating the industries that use them.

So why don't they just pay workers more if they need more. Let demand drive price. This is a clear example of where you don't need a union. Because the companies will simply have to pay more. No need for a union to negotiate higher wages.

... they aren't paying workers more though, because there's no unions around to give the workers enough bargaining power. This is why unions are needed -- a random worker needs his job more than the company needs him, and is not on equal bargaining footage.

If your argument actually worked, then they would be paying workers more. But they aren't, so it doesn't work, and unions are needed.

Re: Young people don’t want construction jobs

#75

Post by CydeWeys » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 4:09 PM UTC

patrickaljord wrote: post #42

nickthemagicman wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On point. You want people just give then good salaryies, benefits, and career growth.

I know a few people in construction, they started working for someone by fixing doors, do painting etc. until they learned enough to find their own clients. It's easier than you think to find a friend who needs something to get fixed and get more clients from there by doing local advertising or even door to door knocking to check if people need some fixes. These people I know now hire their own workers (and still wor…

That requires entrepreneurship though, which is a whole collection of semi-related skills that most people don't have. "Just start your own business" works for some, but not for most. HN is biased more towards those types of folk by its nature, but we aren't a representative sampling of the population at large in this respect.

Re: Young people don’t want construction jobs

#76

Post by cletus » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 4:09 PM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #22

What's the endgame for construction workers? Everyone can't move into management. Many people's bodies can't handle that kind of manual labor for 40 years, and even if they could construction jobs tend to be insecure. If you want people to make those trade offs you have to pay more. This kind of rhetoric from companies drives me nuts. They push to remove regulations, but when the free market says they have to pay mor…

I think this depends a lot on what type of construction you're talking about and also what trade.

Residential SFHs is different to low-rise buildings, which I assume is different again to building high-rise buildings.

It also depends on what skill you have. General labourers are likely going to be lifting heavy things a lot but I don't think that's universally true. Bricklayers, electricians, plumbers, tilers, etc all have different profiles.

I actually think that for a lot of these kinds of jobs that you could be doing them well into your 50s just fine. Being active makes it easier to stay active.

Also, if you do pursue a trade you will likely have apprentices eventually. Part of what they're for is doing the heavy lifting.

Experience in construction will eventually open up avenues such as being a general contractor, property inspection, construction management and so on.

Re: Young people don’t want construction jobs

#77

Post by CydeWeys » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 4:11 PM UTC

bobthepanda wrote: post #41

wccrawford wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like $14.07. https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Construction_Labore... Even "Construction Worker" doesn't bring it up much ($14.75), which means there's nothing in that career directly. https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Construction_Worker... The next step in that career is to be a manager or foreman. The Foreman only gets $22.36. ($38k/yr) https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Construction_Fore…

Depends on the market you're in and what you can do. > A crane operator in New York City earns $82.15 an hour in base pay and benefits, according to the Engineer News-Record, a trade publication. That's well's above the $66 an hour he would earn in Chicago or the $39 an hour in Washington, D.C. > But the real reason New York crane operators and other operating engineers earn such big salaries is overtime and benefits…

Crane operators are unionized. That's why they get good pay and have overtime and benefits. https://therealdeal.com/issues_articles/local-14-a-thorn-in-...

It's really hard to break into though, because unlike entry level construction jobs that pay scraps, the demand is higher than the supply.

Re: Young people don’t want construction jobs

#78

Post by CydeWeys » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 4:14 PM UTC

PantaloonFlames wrote: post #36

Kluny wrote: post #18

I'd love to work construction. But every time I've mentioned it to my family they tell me about how it will destroy my knees and back, I'll lose fingers, get hearing damage, head injuries, and the pay is crap compared to the risk. If there was decent workplace safety (my hometown is infamous for it's poor safety standards), and a good pension program where you're expected to want to quit and do something else after 1…

Good point about the pension (or other retirement provision). You won't lose fingers or lose your hearing if you take proper care. You won't destroy your back if you stay in shape. There are pressures to do the wrong thing. People can resist them. There are risks; this is why people wear hardhats and steel-toed boots on worksites. But the risks can be managed. The pay remains .. a challenge.

Accidents happen. You only have so much control over them. You also aren't the only person on the jobsite. You can be the most careful person in the world, and then die because your fumbling coworker a few stories up dropped a beam on your head.

A good parallel is motorcycles. A good motorcycle rider is much less likely to experience accidents than a bad rider, but even the best rider is still more likely to experience accidents than a car driver, simply because of all the other people on the road. You only have so much control. Likewise, even the best construction worker is still more likely to wear out their body or experience accidents than the average office worker.

Re: Young people don’t want construction jobs

#79

Post by CydeWeys » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 4:17 PM UTC

null000 wrote: post #46

> generally well-paid [1] Three seconds on google suggests that they make not well paid, especially for a job that's fickle and physically demanding. Hell, that's barely above minimum wage (I'm in a $15/hr area, minimum wage is $32k) - I can get an office job tomorrow paying close to the same with basically no effort. As usual, whenever someone blames labor for labor shortages, just look at the wages. If you pay less…

Good point about the employment being fickle. Construction workers get screwed in pretty much every recession, the previous one being particularly bad. The only negative that happened to me in 2008 was we didn't get an annual bonus. The average construction worker saw much reduced hours over a period spanning years, or lost their job entirely. There was a huge outflow from the construction sector during that recession, disproportionately large compared to almost every other employment sector.

Re: Young people don’t want construction jobs

#80

Post by logfromblammo » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 4:17 PM UTC

greenhatman wrote: post #56

49531 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that stigmatizing trades has contributed to this issue, but we've also simultaneously made trades worse by allowing their unions to decay and be deregulating the industries that use them.

So why don't they just pay workers more if they need more. Let demand drive price. This is a clear example of where you don't need a union. Because the companies will simply have to pay more. No need for a union to negotiate higher wages.

The companies of 2018 are playing chicken with the labor market. They are not offering higher wages, betting that the workers will start to get hungry long before the stockholders start to notice that the cabana boy has been delivering smaller drinks to their beach chairs, at longer intervals.

They don't have to pay more. The stockholders just don't know of any place better to put their money right now. It's not like a startup could undercut and take all the business by choosing to funnel less profit towards the founders and investors. Investors won't invest in a risky venture unless you dangle a good rate of return in front of their faces. Established companies won't change course from a proven business plan.

If you pitch to investors a grocery store that will operate on a 1% profit margin instead of 2%, and give the difference to the store employees, in the form of living wages and solid benefits, you'll get laughed right out of the boardroom. If you instead walk in and say that the workers have cartelized, such that no existing store will have any employees unless it offers living wages and solid benefits, you're far more likely to get them.