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The problem with programming and how to fix it

alarmingdevelopment.org

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Re: The problem with programming and how to fix it

#71

Post by Glench »

mike_honcho wrote: post #23

I disagree. The world we have today couldn't be built on simple tools like Spreadsheets and Visual Basic. The amount of complexity in programming is necessary, and the outcome has been tremendous and miraculous if you think about it. And we don't want to build a future where the masses should be programming! You want my mother to be programming? My sister? Why? I work as a software engineer and most of the time progr…

Yo, I have to say something about the sexism in the parent comment for this thread. Specifically:

  > You want my mother to be programming? My sister?
This is sexist because it assumes that those people (women) can't / shouldn't be / aren't programmers. It's exclusionary and has the effect of making people who aren't male / professional programmers feel unwelcome. If instead you specified something like "people without proper training shouldn't build important systems" then that would be more accurate without being sexist.

And yes, of course we'd like your mother and sister to program, in the same way we want everyone to be able to read and write or drive a car. Programming is a wonderful tool that can do so much in many different contexts, and limiting that power to an elite few is a tragic loss of potential.

Re: The problem with programming and how to fix it

#72

Post by AstralStorm »

david927 wrote: post #56
AstralStorm wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The easiest fix is to debunk the article. Which reflects the author not spending enough time writing kidding critical software and too much with cool startup kids. There is no technical solution to a social problem caused by hiring cheap young and naive programmers.

The author is Jonathan Edwards who was a fellow at MIT and is an eminent Computer Scientist. The article stands true on its own, and is not a simple indictment of a class of programmers.

Well, if anything, MIT actually is the startup and cool stuff mine lately in addition to strong CS.

Programming can be made as accessible as spreadsheets to common people when they become as good at baseline logic as good programmers. (This is not that high of a bar actually for your average cheap coder.)

Designing CRUD apps has been automated before, as have been macro systems like iMacros or AutoIt or the venerable Windows Recorder. RAD tools still exist but common people don't want them. Graphical junk like LabVIEW also still exists.

Automating modifying applications runs counter to job security and would enforce a specific architectural decisions forever... Too expensive unless it is for mission critical software.

Re: The problem with programming and how to fix it

#73

Post by stcredzero »

TuringTest wrote: post #59
throwaway648 wrote: post #32

Lemme use an analogy: Why is building a house not accessible to all? Surely house building could be more like building with legos. Building a proper house is so much more that just piling rocks mixed with mortar. You have to take into account the ground composition, moisture, light, ventilation, red tape, usability, safety, etc. In other words: it takes a huge set of skill. You can use advanced tools, like a tractor…

Not all programming is akin to building a house. Some of it is similar to hanging a shelf in the kitchen. Why should it take an architect to drill the holes and fasten the wall plugs to hang a spice rack? Sure it might need some training, but it should be the kind that can be explained in a DIY TV show.

Why should it take an architect to drill the holes and fasten the wall plugs to hang a spice rack?

But the person hanging the shelf should have enough of a grasp of mechanics so it doesn't fall down. They should know enough basic physics and chemistry so they don't install something prone to corroding. If they encounter asbestos or old lead paint while installing, they should know enough to know what to do about that, and what not to do.

Re: The problem with programming and how to fix it

#74

Post by AstralStorm »

Glench wrote: post #71
mike_honcho wrote: post #23

I disagree. The world we have today couldn't be built on simple tools like Spreadsheets and Visual Basic. The amount of complexity in programming is necessary, and the outcome has been tremendous and miraculous if you think about it. And we don't want to build a future where the masses should be programming! You want my mother to be programming? My sister? Why? I work as a software engineer and most of the time progr…

Yo, I have to say something about the sexism in the parent comment for this thread. Specifically: > You want my mother to be programming? My sister? This is sexist because it assumes that those people (women) can't / shouldn't be / aren't programmers. It's exclusionary and has the effect of making people who aren't male / professional programmers feel unwelcome. If instead you specified something like "people without…

Let's be ageist instead, since that is apparently more acceptable. /s

> you want my granddad to do programming?

Re: The problem with programming and how to fix it

#75

Post by AstralStorm »

reacweb wrote: post #46
mike_honcho wrote: post #23

I disagree. The world we have today couldn't be built on simple tools like Spreadsheets and Visual Basic. The amount of complexity in programming is necessary, and the outcome has been tremendous and miraculous if you think about it. And we don't want to build a future where the masses should be programming! You want my mother to be programming? My sister? Why? I work as a software engineer and most of the time progr…

In my utopian world, I would like to edit the source code of my microwave so that it stops its annoying bips as soon as I open its door. I would love to remove the stupid nag screen that appears each time I start my nissan leaf. I am not an electrician, but I can fix basic electric issues. Sometimes, I can fix broken furniture. I am a programmer and I can fix almost nothing. When we can program, we are in control. I…

Sometimes you can... We did fix a few issues with a washing machine controller once.

But that took a lot of work on an undocumented software in machine code in 8051 and had the best tools.

The issue is that is not easily traceable from machine code representation. Even electronics are easier.

Re: The problem with programming and how to fix it

#76

Post by AstralStorm »

ModernMech wrote: post #68
nicodjimenez wrote: post #41

This is like trying to suggest we need more women in the NFL. Programming is an extreme sport where geeks excel - men and women, but mostly men - who else has the patience to deal with the minutia? Maybe I'm just biased towards rhetoric that suggest we should remove extreme variations between populations of humans, as segmented by occupation (or whatever). Let's embrace our differences. If programming was easy to do…

> who else has the patience to deal with the minutia? Women. What the hell is this? > If programming was easy to do at high levels of excellence by anyone We're not expecting programming with high levels of excellence from no programmers. Just some basic programming would be nice without having to spend a week setting up a dev box before "Hello World" even can be attempted.

Uh, you have Visual Basic host and Powershell in Windows. No setup required and have an OK manual.

You have VS Code which is trivial to install and easy to use. Batteries included (unlike Python in Windows)

Re: The problem with programming and how to fix it

#77

Post by AstralStorm »

vanderZwan wrote: post #24
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #7

I believe that software is not a professional practise but a new form of literacy (in fact the book I am writing is all about this (Real Soon Now, thanks for asking)) And when you see software as literacy a lot of the stuff he moans about simply goes away. Yes it is seen as exclusive and a priesthood - imagine what illiterate serfs thought of those who could write. It took years of practise. No it's not a good idea t…

> No it's not a good idea to make programming more accessible. We don't have easy literature, we don't think someone who reads and writes solely with fridge magnets (#) has mastered the language. You're mixing up the content of writing with the methods of writing them. Writing "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet" is still as poetic when using fridge magnets. Because of that, you fail to see that modern wri…

Programming does not have a nice alphabet because it has to be unambiguously defined for stupid computers to understand.

There is no such thing as a programming alphabet.

Re: The problem with programming and how to fix it

#78

Post by AstralStorm »

randomsearch wrote: post #33
a_imho wrote: post #29

After reading the article I don't get the author's problem or the proposed fix.

An ironic answer would be, yes that’s his point. I think the problem is: Programming is designed for and by a small group of programmers who enjoy making it difficult. The solution is to create industrial societies / institutions / guilds etc. who can encourage a transition away towards simpler and more accessible programming approaches.

Please describe some of those "more accessible" approaches and I'll probably tell you that they are already here and/or have already failed.

Otherwise the idea is completely not constructive.

Re: The problem with programming and how to fix it

#79

Post by quuxman »

randomsearch wrote: post #40
0xBA5ED wrote: post #20

Simplifying software is a fantastic goal, but blaming the situation on an "isolated subculture of nerdy young men" is the opposite of helpful. Also, I would seriously consider the fact that some things are simply complicated and there's no conspiracy behind it. A lot of very smart people work very hard to find ways of taming this beast. It's just hard.

I’m interested as to whether there really is complexity that can’t be simplified in general. Here’s an obvious example where it could be: web apps are mostly conceptually simple: a thin client which is basically a UI framework talks to a process on a remote server. So you need something to develop the UI and something for the server. But instead of the “web UI toolkit” (which could mostly be a graphical tool) we have…

conceptually simple, perhaps, but in practice they are far from it. HTML, CSS, JS, and web server tools are complex because web pages are extremely parameterized over different content, client sizes and types, user preferences, and data. From being a long time web developer, the graphical layout tools are basically only useful for graphic design, because they output code that only works for the exact layout and content initially created, which is typically useless for anything but static content.

I think the difficulty of making tools for abstracting web content are related to the difficulties of creating more intuitive programming tools.

Re: The problem with programming and how to fix it

#80

Post by joshuafcole »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #7

I believe that software is not a professional practise but a new form of literacy (in fact the book I am writing is all about this (Real Soon Now, thanks for asking)) And when you see software as literacy a lot of the stuff he moans about simply goes away. Yes it is seen as exclusive and a priesthood - imagine what illiterate serfs thought of those who could write. It took years of practise. No it's not a good idea t…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_...

Literature is accessible and as a society we value the importance of ensuring that everybody has access to the power it provides. You can either believe that programming is for the elite /or/ that it is like literature.

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