Could someone ELI5 why smaller/denser feature size and layouts is the way we achieve higher and higher speeds? Is it mainly about efficiency and heat?
Intel delays 10nm Cannon Lake processors, again, until late 2019
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Re: Intel delays 10nm Cannon Lake processors, again, until late 2019
#72The secret behind 10nm technology: https://www.asml.com/press/press-releases/earnings-growth-co... “Outlook For the third-quarter of 2018, ASML expects net sales between EUR 2.7 billion and EUR 2.8 billion, a gross margin between 47 percent and 48 percent. R&D costs of about EUR 395 million, SG&A costs of about EUR 120 million. Our target effective annualized tax rate is around 14 percent.”
I don't believe ASML is holding up the Intel 10nm. It was a problem in Intel's own making. Their EUV equipment are mostly related Samsung 7nm, GF 7nm, and TSMC 7nm+.
Re: Intel delays 10nm Cannon Lake processors, again, until late 2019
#73From the original article: >In the second-quarter results, Intel said that its 10-nanometer yields are "on track" with systems on the market in the second half of 2019. Krzanich's previous perspective wasn't specific on whether they would arrive in the first half of next year or in the second half. On the conference call with analysts on Thursday, Swan was more specific and said products would be on shelves in time f…
>Murthy Renduchintala, group president of the technology, systems architecture and client group, said on the call that the products that will become available in 2019 are client computing products,
This sounds to me like Apple telling Intel. We plan to ship new MacBook, MacBook Pro, iMac and Mac Pro after 2019 Keynote. If you don't deliver we will kick all of Intel's product out of our roadmap. Including the modem business, which although offer no profits value but lots of investor are looking at it.
Re: Intel delays 10nm Cannon Lake processors, again, until late 2019
#74Well they have a lot of things to care of before to release the next CPU https://www.intel.ca/content/www/ca/en/support/articles/0000... In particular security issues related to the IME: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine
I hate that thing more than anything else in computing. Windows 10 spying pales in comparison to the theoretical capabilities of the ME. There was this brief campaign to try to get AMD to let users control or disable their ME equivalent, but it never went anywhere. I would kill for a modern computing platform without this crap built in. Soon forced DRM will go through it as well. It's absolutely shocking to see how m…
In the server/workstation space you can also opt in for an expensive Raptor Talos II system (but you'll get Power instead of x86). There is very little competition in the space for open/libre high end computer hardware systems.
Re: Intel delays 10nm Cannon Lake processors, again, until late 2019
#75Could someone ELI5 why smaller/denser feature size and layouts is the way we achieve higher and higher speeds? Is it mainly about efficiency and heat?
As I heard, it is mostly about heat. However, there is also a distance component. It takes an electrical signal about 3 * 10^-9 seconds to cross 3cm, about the size of a CPU. That is roughly one clock tick on a 3GHz processor. Add in 'fill time' (you need some time for the voltage to build and stabilize) and moving signals across a CPU becomes a challenge.
My speed calculations used the speed of a signal in a copper wire, not sure how the minute size and perhaps even angles of CPU wiring affect that.
Re: Intel delays 10nm Cannon Lake processors, again, until late 2019
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
Does anyone believe there's another core duo type massive leap out there to even be had this time around though? AMD is going to slowly pull a bit ahead of intel, especially in bang for buck, but i don't see how they can catch back up. As it is, last time intel jumped ahead it was by repackaging and souping up an a mobile arch that in and of itself was based on the old pentium 3 arch. They can't really mine the parts…
If Intel goes multi-chip in the same package like Ryzen, then yeah, they can get more cores in, similar to Ryzen Threadripper. So there is a leap coming for Intel as well if they go that route, and after the massive success of Ryzen, they are likely going there. Just easier to scale core counts if you can use smaller dies and just use a lot of them with an interconnect fabric.
Without coming up with a pretty new overall design, Intel will struggle with that: the IO capabilities of Zen are much better than those of today's Xeons. And the more chips, the more sockets, the more chip IO. On top of that, as the throughput requirements for NICs, accelerators, storage (ssds and nvram-type devices) keeps increasing very quickly, that'll put further pressure on such a design.
Don't get me wrong, it seems likely that Intel is considering such options, but they won't be all too amazing for many workloads.
Re: Intel delays 10nm Cannon Lake processors, again, until late 2019
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's more one kind of apple to another. They're both process nodes, with certain minor-ish differences here and there. TSMC calls theirs 7 nm, Intel calls theirs 10 nm. Their performance characteristics might be around the same. In practice... who knows. We do know that Intel's current 10 nm CPUs are pretty much broken ~ best they could currently do was useless laptop-grade 2.5 GHz dual-core with no functional iGPU.…
I really hope they don't give up on making discrete GPUs again. That internal program and been brought back up and killed a few times. I use to own an i740 way back in the day, and my cousin even worked on that video driver. With nVidia's buy out of 3Dfx and PowerVR pretty much only doing mobile phones/tablets, it'd be nice to see a 3rd player in the nVidia/AMD space again . I know Matrox still exists, but for what I…
Interesting... i740 drivers was very broken. I remember having a lot of issue with many games.
Re: Intel delays 10nm Cannon Lake processors, again, until late 2019
#78Earlier quoted context omitted.
If Intel goes multi-chip in the same package like Ryzen, then yeah, they can get more cores in, similar to Ryzen Threadripper. So there is a leap coming for Intel as well if they go that route, and after the massive success of Ryzen, they are likely going there. Just easier to scale core counts if you can use smaller dies and just use a lot of them with an interconnect fabric.
Without coming up with a pretty new overall design, Intel will struggle with that: the IO capabilities of Zen are much better than those of today's Xeons. And the more chips, the more sockets, the more chip IO. On top of that, as the throughput requirements for NICs, accelerators, storage (ssds and nvram-type devices) keeps increasing very quickly, that'll put further pressure on such a design. Don't get me wrong, it…
They do need to come up with a new design.
Intel hired Jim Keller that developed AMD's HyperTransport and the Zen's interconnection fabric and was intrumental in the Zen project a few months ago.
Re: Intel delays 10nm Cannon Lake processors, again, until late 2019
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
If Intel goes multi-chip in the same package like Ryzen, then yeah, they can get more cores in, similar to Ryzen Threadripper. So there is a leap coming for Intel as well if they go that route, and after the massive success of Ryzen, they are likely going there. Just easier to scale core counts if you can use smaller dies and just use a lot of them with an interconnect fabric.
Intel had two advantages: 1. Relentless process improvement, putting them 1-2 generations ahead of everyone else. 2. Using their monopoly to prevent OEMs from shipping AMD processors. #1 isn't true anymore. #2 is almost irrelevant since mobile has taken over and makes the PC revolution look like child's play by comparison. Intel doesn't have a good graphics story. They sell hot power-hungry chips. They no longer have…
Intel needs to pull a Microsoft.
Basically the new Microsoft CEO has reinvigorated Microsoft by challenging the old preconceptions and doing what is right in the current environment. I wonder if Intel could find a CEO like that.
I still can not believe that my favorite code editor on Linux is an open source code text-oriented editor from Microsoft (VS Code.)
Re: Intel delays 10nm Cannon Lake processors, again, until late 2019
#80Well they have a lot of things to care of before to release the next CPU https://www.intel.ca/content/www/ca/en/support/articles/0000... In particular security issues related to the IME: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine
I hate that thing more than anything else in computing. Windows 10 spying pales in comparison to the theoretical capabilities of the ME. There was this brief campaign to try to get AMD to let users control or disable their ME equivalent, but it never went anywhere. I would kill for a modern computing platform without this crap built in. Soon forced DRM will go through it as well. It's absolutely shocking to see how m…
FX8370 or FX93xx but the last gets very hot.