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The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

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Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#71

Post by bsagdiyev »

pixl97 wrote: post #14
Sharlin wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I read a library-related discussion on HN, one of the sentiments expressed was basically ”I download ebooks, why would anyone need a library?” Boggles the mind. There was also a bizarre comment about libraries being only funded to keep a bunch of otherwise useless civil servants employed.

>”I download ebooks, why would anyone need a library?” Pretty much the tech version of "I am a W.A.S.P., I pretend everybody that has different economic, social, and cultural differences from me doesn't exist"

In case anyone else was confused like me: W.A.S.P. is White Anglo-Saxon Protestant (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Anglo-Saxon_Protestant)

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#72

Post by imbruglia »

BurningFrog wrote: post #26
Sharlin wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I read a library-related discussion on HN, one of the sentiments expressed was basically ”I download ebooks, why would anyone need a library?” Boggles the mind. There was also a bizarre comment about libraries being only funded to keep a bunch of otherwise useless civil servants employed.

Let me steelman that argument. Libraries were invented because information was only available on printed (or hand written) books, which were very expensive and scarce resources. Now information can be available almost literally for free and instantly, to anywhere. If the institutional inertia of libraries didn't exist today, would they really be invented as they are? https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Steel_man

When something becomes abundant how to manage that resource becomes more important not less. Otherwise you end up with the resource curse.

When information is free having somewhere to study that information, that isn't your shared apartment, becomes more important. Having somewhere to meet people to talk about the information, that isn't a crowded coffee shop, becomes more important. Having the expertise to find the right information, that isn't necessarily blog posts nor research pappers, again becomes more important.

Libraries are only useless to the extent that they haven't expanded. But in line with the resource curse it ends up being more lucrative to work in information technology rather than with information technology. So while many other industries are struggling the large tech companies are making bank by being part of the problem.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#73

Post by realbarack »

Sharlin wrote: post #9
chris_mc wrote: post #2

If you think libraries are useless, try going to one a few times and talk to the staff about the services they provide. I'd personally say libraries are one of the government organizations with the best return on investment, because education and information are almost invaluable. I'll fight a war over libraries, no joke.

Last time I read a library-related discussion on HN, one of the sentiments expressed was basically ”I download ebooks, why would anyone need a library?” Boggles the mind. There was also a bizarre comment about libraries being only funded to keep a bunch of otherwise useless civil servants employed.

Many libraries (including San Francisco, where I am a member) even offer e-books and audiobooks. I switched to reading almost exclusively on my kindle, but I still get the vast majority of books for free from the library.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#74

Post by harlanji »

The Library is literally the last place I can go as a homeless person to be left alone... I've been Tweeting about just this recently.

The idea of Amazon taking over the library literally has tears in my eyes right now, in the middle of a public room: absolutely not.

I grew up with no resources, uneducated parents, and the library was my refuge and why I made it to a successful position the first time.

Take the Library away and I'm done for, and poor people never have a chance.

> We give them a running start in helping improve their lives.

Oh, you can check out books there, too.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#75

Post by dbg31415 »

Hate the title.

Something is either a good enough idea (or entrenched enough idea) to withstand disruption. Or it's not. If it's not... it sort of deserved to be replaced by something better.

Libraries tend to be a good idea. That said... I haven't been to one in a decade. Not really sure what's changed in that time, hopefully they offer free wi-fi... and hopefully there aren't a row of creepy bums watching porn on the screens facing away from the door... Past that, wish them well. Everything in our lives should be subject to disruption -- that's how we make it better.

Edit: Finished reading the piece.

"Our library provides a space where they can use free computers and wifi, as well as access a climate-controlled environment with clean bathrooms and water. Many of our patrons arrive first thing in the morning from a homeless shelter and stay until a shuttle picks them up to take them back in the evening."

Um... yeah, reading this I don't want a library to be a place to store homeless people. This creeps me out and makes me want to defund them. As a kid in the 90s I remember having to go to the library, from time to time, to do reports and class projects. It was creepy then to have bums looking at porn, and I'm sure it's still creepy. Not keen on having tax dollars go to fund this.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#76

Post by pdkl95 »

BurningFrog wrote: post #64
Apocryphon wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The counter-argument is that libraries provide vital services to communities as public facilities in addition to simply being collections of shared knowledge, and that physical space should not be so easily replaced by the virtual.

True, but I think of that as institutional inertia. Libraries were formed to share very expensive printed books in a common space. Over the centuries, books and information became very cheap, and now mostly the common space remains. It certainly has real value. Do we need to keep the pretense of the books as the real purpose for it?

> It certainly has real value. Do we need to keep ... books as the real purpose ...

Max Headroom, episode ABC.1.3 "Body Bags":

    Paula: "...what's that?"
    Blank Reg: "It's a book!"
    Paula: "Well, what's that?"
    Blank Reg: "It's a non-volatile storage medium.
                It's very rare. You should have one."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me6oNB4M7N0

Books still work when the power goes out or the copyright cartels revoke - intentionally or not - your ereader's license. Widespread preservation of knowledge on non-volatile media is protection against future problems.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#77

Post by epalmer »

chris_mc wrote: post #2

If you think libraries are useless, try going to one a few times and talk to the staff about the services they provide. I'd personally say libraries are one of the government organizations with the best return on investment, because education and information are almost invaluable. I'll fight a war over libraries, no joke.

My oldest daughter (26 years old) works at a library part-time in circulation. In December she will get her masters and be able to become a librarian. Libraries are more than books, they are maker spaces, community spaces, learning pods and so much more.

We are bullish on libraries. However, libraries have to keep updating their services and offer community engagement services.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#78

Post by AckSyn »

realbarack wrote: post #73
Sharlin wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I read a library-related discussion on HN, one of the sentiments expressed was basically ”I download ebooks, why would anyone need a library?” Boggles the mind. There was also a bizarre comment about libraries being only funded to keep a bunch of otherwise useless civil servants employed.

Many libraries (including San Francisco, where I am a member) even offer e-books and audiobooks. I switched to reading almost exclusively on my kindle, but I still get the vast majority of books for free from the library.

I’d like to reiterate your last point.

Many libraries loan out ebooks!!! It’s very convenient and free.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#79

Post by Spooky23 »

BurningFrog wrote: post #26
Sharlin wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I read a library-related discussion on HN, one of the sentiments expressed was basically ”I download ebooks, why would anyone need a library?” Boggles the mind. There was also a bizarre comment about libraries being only funded to keep a bunch of otherwise useless civil servants employed.

Let me steelman that argument. Libraries were invented because information was only available on printed (or hand written) books, which were very expensive and scarce resources. Now information can be available almost literally for free and instantly, to anywhere. If the institutional inertia of libraries didn't exist today, would they really be invented as they are? https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Steel_man

We live in a fundamentally broken society today where rent-seekers want to break it further. No libraries would never be invented today. People like Carnegie who thrived in the industrial revolution recognized that and understood that education and social evolution was the path to prosperity and peace. When he studied recent history in his day, he probably pondered the decades of chaos and suffering kicked off by the French Revolution.

The modern plutocrat is mostly a strictly transactional affair, who has dumbed business down to resource extraction.

I became involved in my city's library system a few years ago when they did a branch expansion that I was initially opposed to for money reasons. I flipped and am now a library fan.

I discovered that it's an environment for learning, social interaction and collaboration. You have programs for little kids where they interact with books for the first time. The elementary kids start collaborating on computers and doing other programs. Older kids are building robots, reading manga, having fun in a meaningful, beneficial way.

The failed promise of the internet that I bought into in the 90s is that access to information will set you free. Yet we find ourselves dominated by propaganda via things like Facebook -- Internet is the new TV. The reality is that information in the context of a meaningful environment is the magic. The library adds value and context to information. It's a situation where the value is greater than the sum of the parts.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#80

Post by jklinger410 »

rayiner wrote: post #69
ashelmire wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just in economic terms, the value of education is pretty clear: https://www.bls.gov/emp/chart-unemployment-earnings-educatio... The value in terms of other benefits (which save financially and in other, more difficult to measure ways) is also pretty clear: https://eml.berkeley.edu/~moretti/lm46.pdf That's the end of the free research I'll do to prove you wrong, because frankly, it's extremely obvious to me and everyo…

The BLS chart shows correlation, not causation. The question is not whether people with college degrees make more money, but whether college actually provided something that inherently increased their earning capacity (beyond the signaling value of college). In Germany, the plurality of kids finish school at Grade 10. Does it make our economy better and more competitive that we make kids endure school through Grade 1…

Education system != Education

Libraries allow for all types of education, not just institutionalized education. This helps facilitate learning. I shouldn't have to provide you any stats that show that gleaning wisdom from the past attempts of others can result in learning. And to cut through the web of semantic bullshit you are building here, learning is absolutely invaluable.

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