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Founders who can't code

news.ycombinator.com

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Re: Founders who can't code

#71

Post by nickpinkston »

endlessvoid94 wrote: post #65
nickpinkston wrote: post #54

There's a big difference between the HN stereotype and "real" business people. REAL non-technical co-founders: - Can raise funding and know funders well - Have a massive network of people to tap into - Can cold-call like no-one's business - Know how to negotiate a deal to the point of paranoia - Have deep domain experience and connections - Make plans for the future, but can pivot on a dime - Can talk enough tech to…

I agree with you, however, I've experienced enough of this stereotype firsthand to basically dismiss most business-types immediately. It's just not worth my time to find the "real" business types, for the same reasons pg mentions in his essay [1]. [1] http://paulgraham.com/start.html

It depends what you're looking to do. If you're doing commercial targeted software, they're invaluable because social media etc. often don't move shit. If you're doing a standard consumer play, they might have less effect.

Re: Founders who can't code

#72

Post by jw84 »

davidcann wrote: post #59
jw84 wrote: post #19

I disagree. Time is money. But which opportunity cost is greater? Do you have access to more time or do you have access to more money? If your primary skillset is in business, marketing, or sales, stick with that. Don't deviate from your specialization.

If you're applying for a job, then I agree. If you're founding a startup, then a business guy needs to be able to clearly and quickly communicate with the developer(s).

One needs to clearly and quickly communicate requirements.

Re: Founders who can't code

#73

Post by jasonfried »

wtn wrote: post #66
shadowsun7 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope this isn't accurate. It's true, but it's not accurate. You have to remember Fried is a web designer. So while he can't design, he has had experience working on things, launching things, talking to developers. And he's willing to put his money where his mouth is - he hired DHH to work on Basecamp, but only after he asked around, looking for help in learning to try to code it himself.

I saw Fried speak at Chicago CocoaHeads, a very technically skilled audience, about two years ago. His presentation was almost entirely a sales pitch for 37signals products, which I thought was very condescending and a missed opportunity.

I think you have me confused with someone else. I haven't spoken at a Chicago CocoaHeads conference.

Re: Founders who can't code

#74

Post by jasonfried »

jbarham wrote: post #33

FWIW Jason Fried, one of the original founders of 37signals, still doesn't know how to program ( http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2540-no-more-drive-by-teachin... ) but that obviously hasn't prevented the company from being a success. But then 37signals started off as a web design firm, and he had the good fortune to hire DHH.

My skills are design, writing, business, strategy, and product vision.

I'm not a programmer, but I'm intimately involved with every piece of UI across our product line as well as our marketing sites.

Some of the UI I design myself, some I work with other designers on, and other bits I give advice, feedback, and guidance on.

I also write the copy on all of our sites, and I'm involved with most of the copy in the apps themselves as well.

I hired DHH as a programmer (and then made him a partner) because those were skills I didn't have. I've done some PHP programming in the past, and I met DHH when he was a PHP programmer, so I was able to evaluate his talent at a very basic level. Beyond that, however, I liked his business mind and general approach to things - they were closely aligned with my own.

I hope this helps explain the dynamic a bit. Let me know if you have any other questions.

Re: Founders who can't code

#75

Post by Pobe »

It's sad you can't team up with people to create a greater product while you do your business work/innovation/generalistic work/legal/accounting etc. etc. you know the stuff a business man should do.

I'm in the same situation as you. Maybe you lack the business man part?

Re: Founders who can't code

#76

Post by Pobe »

shadowsun7 wrote: post #60

This isn't accurate. Most of this is true, but not for the reasons the thread author gave in his piece. Why should a business/non-technical founder learn to code? The answer to this is simple: so that you have better ideas. Or, put another way: learning to code gives you the ability to implement your ideas. And implementing your ideas forces you to recognize, after some time, what works and what doesn't. Hackers who…

Nop, the less you know of a system the more you can think out of it. Which is a big part of innovation.

Re: Founders who can't code

#77

Post by christonog »

jasonfried wrote: post #74
jbarham wrote: post #33

FWIW Jason Fried, one of the original founders of 37signals, still doesn't know how to program ( http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2540-no-more-drive-by-teachin... ) but that obviously hasn't prevented the company from being a success. But then 37signals started off as a web design firm, and he had the good fortune to hire DHH.

My skills are design, writing, business, strategy, and product vision. I'm not a programmer, but I'm intimately involved with every piece of UI across our product line as well as our marketing sites. Some of the UI I design myself, some I work with other designers on, and other bits I give advice, feedback, and guidance on. I also write the copy on all of our sites, and I'm involved with most of the copy in the apps…

Just out of curiosity, to what extent do you do design? Is it just interface design, making that interface look good through Photoshop, or going as far as coding up the HTML and CSS? Additionally, what would you say are requirements for becoming good at business, strategy, and product vision? I'm looking to eventually move into these roles myself.

Re: Founders who can't code

#78

Post by jbarham »

jasonfried wrote: post #74
jbarham wrote: post #33

FWIW Jason Fried, one of the original founders of 37signals, still doesn't know how to program ( http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2540-no-more-drive-by-teachin... ) but that obviously hasn't prevented the company from being a success. But then 37signals started off as a web design firm, and he had the good fortune to hire DHH.

My skills are design, writing, business, strategy, and product vision. I'm not a programmer, but I'm intimately involved with every piece of UI across our product line as well as our marketing sites. Some of the UI I design myself, some I work with other designers on, and other bits I give advice, feedback, and guidance on. I also write the copy on all of our sites, and I'm involved with most of the copy in the apps…

Thanks for clarifying your role at 37signals, which I think illustrates the importance of the non-technical but still crucial skills that make a business successful. We programmers are IMO too prone to over-emphasize the importance of coding ability since that's what we're comfortable with.

BTW, I sincerely meant no disrespect. I've been following 37signals since the homepage was the manifesto (http://37signals.com/manifesto) and am a great admirer of the 37signals' bootstrap business philosophy which I think is a healthy counter-weight to the VC-centric Silicon Valley mindset.

Re: Founders who can't code

#79

Post by rokhayakebe »

lachyg wrote: post #29
joystickers wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a technical guy who is taking care of the biz side of things in my startup, I must disagree with you lachy. I know how aggravating it is when someone shows complete disinterest in the technicalities. They lack an awareness of the challenges and think this stuff is magic. It's not. There are limitations and trade-offs. I'm learning a lot of mechanical engineering stuff from my co-founders that's critical to underst…

I think I conveyed my point pretty hopelessly. Don't get my wrong, I love the technical side, I think it's fascinating, I just wouldn't want that to be my full time job. I can read and understand code, I just can't write it. I love to learn bits here and there, especially front-end. I appreciate your reply, and I agree with you.

"I can read and understand code, I just can't write it".

That is what I thought too before writing. Let me tell you you don't understand it, my friend.

Edit: That was not a smart comment from me. Let me rephrase it. If you can read and understand it, then writing it should be less hard for you.

Re: Founders who can't code

#80

Post by shadowsun7 »

shadowsun7 wrote: post #52
alnayyir wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Fried is sharp enough to identify talent and bullshit anyway, so he overcame the necessity of this advice through that and the fact that the above advice isn't entirely applicable to his case.

Nope this isn't accurate. It's true, but it's not accurate. You have to remember Fried is a web designer. So while he can't design, he has had experience working on things, launching things, talking to developers. And he's willing to put his money where his mouth is - he hired DHH to work on Basecamp, but only after he asked around, looking for help in learning to try to code it himself.

Oops, I meant 'so while he can't code*'
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