European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case • Hacker News Board

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#71

Post by rusk » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 9:55 AM UTC

bwb wrote: post #61

This one frustrated me to read, i think they should have gotten involved sooner and worked with google. Instead they slap a crazy high fee for something that is vague in violation. It does feel a bit like a vendetta here by the EU.

I kind of felt the same about the Apple Tax / Irish Revenue Commissioners thing.

On looking into the judgement however it appeared as though both parties actively sought to subvert competition rules under a disingenuous "veil of ignorance". Warning shots had been fired earlier but the practices continued hence the fine.

I haven't read into the details of this judgement yet but you may well find similar reasoning therein.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#72

Post by shaqbert » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 9:56 AM UTC

cageface wrote: post #57

I think this is a mistake and essentially punishing Google for pursuing an open distribution model for Android, without which I doubt it would have emerged as a serious competitor to iOS. We're all a lot better off, even people that use iOS, because there has been real competition in mobile. This is essentially choosing which business models the EU thinks should win.

The punishment is not for pursuing an open source distribution model, but by applying undue power in taking back control of the open distribution model.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#73

Post by dao- » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 9:57 AM UTC

amelius wrote: post #55

I'm wondering how such a fine actually comes into existence. How does some EU committee get the idea that Google is anti-competitive here? Is this the result of lobbying by competitors? Can we somehow post the EU about instances where companies are being anti-competitive, and get them to take action somehow? Given the enormous amount of anti-competitive behavior we see every day in the news, I can't help but feel thi…

> Is this the result of lobbying by competitors?

Probably in part yes, but the European Commission is also pretty proactive. E.g. if I remember correctly, they reached out to Mozilla to get their take on how MS was bundling IE with Windows, after Opera originally complained about it. This came out of it: https://www.google.com/search?q=browser+choice+screen&tbm=is...

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#74

Post by repolfx » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 9:57 AM UTC

littlecranky67 wrote: post #27

ekianjo wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android does not have a monopoly either. You can buy an iPhone.

A monopoly is not defined by the possiblity that there are other products available for purchase on the market, but rather how many products have been purchased and are in use. Using your reasoning, Microsoft could never have had a monopoly on Windows because you always could have bought a Mac.

That latter definition is in fact a reasonable counter-argument to Windows being a monopoly (people did buy Macs), and that's why Microsoft got in trouble for the deals they cut to try and crush Netscape, not for making a more popular OS than Apple did.

You can't define a monopoly as "your competitors aren't popular" because otherwise it'd be illegal to invent new product categories, as at the start you'd be the only player in the new space. You can't define it that way for another reason: it punishes success.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#75

Post by rusk » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 9:59 AM UTC

amelius wrote: post #55

I'm wondering how such a fine actually comes into existence. How does some EU committee get the idea that Google is anti-competitive here? Is this the result of lobbying by competitors? Can we somehow post the EU about instances where companies are being anti-competitive, and get them to take action somehow? Given the enormous amount of anti-competitive behavior we see every day in the news, I can't help but feel thi…

You don't really need lobbying in order to make Google conspicuous. In particular with their creative approaches to accounting.

> Is this the result of lobbying?

In all likelihood there was almost certainly an element of lobbying, in particular complaints about these business practices which eventually coalesced into some kind of more focused activities.

It seems a bit quixotic to blame "competitors". Which competitors exactly? That's the whole premise of abuse of dominant market position.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#76

Post by skj » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 9:59 AM UTC

TekMol wrote: post #29

I wonder to what extend this was anticipated by the market. The stock is down about 1%. Not much considering that $5B should be about 1/3 of Googles yearly earnings. On the other hand, 1% of Googles stock is about $8B. From that viewpoint, one might think it has come unanticipated. Then again, stocks rise and fall 1% all the time. So it's hard to read something into it. Is this the same case as reported in January he…

5b is about one of Google's quarterly earnings.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#77

Post by ge0rg » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 10:00 AM UTC

repolfx wrote: post #66

hrktb wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A better source: > The European Commission has accused Google of abusing its Android market dominance by bundling its search engine and Chrome apps into the operating system. Google has also allegedly blocked phone makers from creating devices that run forked versions of Android. https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/18/17580694/google-android-e... > How is it any different Apple doesn’t have a dominent search engine to pu…

That first claim is clearly wrong though. Firstly, Android doesn't have a monopoly. Apple does fine in Europe and their devices can be bought everywhere. Secondly, there are device makers that didn't cut a deal with Google, notably the Amazon phones and tablets. They weren't that popular with consumers but that's not Google's fault: it just means consumers highly value the additional services Google provides.

Maybe the problem with the Google deal is that it's exclusive: if you want to make one device that's Google approved and contains the "highly valued" services, you are disallowed by the compliance contract to make other Android devices that are not Google-approved.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#78

Post by yorwba » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 10:01 AM UTC

vatueil wrote: post #49

detaro wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also about giving the manufacturers more freedom in what "flavor" of Android they ship, e.g. currently Google forbids them from making both devices with Android with all the Google stuff and devices without it, or devices only using some of the package.

Seems kinda perverse. After all, you can't fork Windows, macOS, or iOS at all. Why should making Android more open than the competition lead to worse punishment?

It's not making Android more open that leads to the punishment here. Google made Android more open when they open-sourced AOSP; they made it more closed when they prohibited manufacturers from actually forking Android in a way Google doesn't like. The behavior that is punished is the use of their market power to negate the open-sourcing, not the open-sourcing itself.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#79

Post by garmaine » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 10:01 AM UTC

arghwhat wrote: post #30

avar wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A fine comes out of your profits, not your revenue. From a Routers[1] source they had $110.9 billion in revenue, but a profit of $12.6 billion. So this is somewhere between a third and half of their global profits. 1. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-alphabet-results/alphabet...

Variable fines are generally set based on revenue, rather than profits.

If so, this is a flaw. Not all businesses have the same margin.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#80

Post by amelius » Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 10:01 AM UTC

dao- wrote: post #73

amelius wrote: post #55

I'm wondering how such a fine actually comes into existence. How does some EU committee get the idea that Google is anti-competitive here? Is this the result of lobbying by competitors? Can we somehow post the EU about instances where companies are being anti-competitive, and get them to take action somehow? Given the enormous amount of anti-competitive behavior we see every day in the news, I can't help but feel thi…

> Is this the result of lobbying by competitors? Probably in part yes, but the European Commission is also pretty proactive. E.g. if I remember correctly, they reached out to Mozilla to get their take on how MS was bundling IE with Windows, after Opera originally complained about it. This came out of it: https://www.google.com/search?q=browser+choice+screen&tbm=is...

> but the European Commission is also pretty proactive.

Isn't it a bit late though?