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The Case Against Patents (2013)

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Re: The Case Against Patents (2013)

#71
post #67
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be true, but I suspect you're underestimating the value created by patents. Three examples: 1) Patents enable "benevolent monopolies." Companies that can afford to splurge on fundamental research because they have a revenue source protected by some sort of barrier to entry or network effect. Xerox PARC, for example, created many of the technologies fundamental to modern computing. PARC was bankrolled by Xero…

Great, let's see what the fine article has to say about these things. 1) "In less than 30 years, the flow of patents more than quadrupled. By contrast, neither innovation nor research and development expenditure nor factor productivity have exhibited any particular upward trend." In other words, more patents does not appear to encourage people to splurge on fundamental research in aggregate. But it gets worse, "The c…

> So at least we've identified where some of the money being brought in from all of these monopolies is going (it isn't to the scientists and engineers).

You're not trying to minimize litigation costs, but rather maximize R&D investment net of litigation costs. So the question is, if competitors could quickly copy the results of R&D efforts, would R&D investment be more or less than 14% lower? Also, it's not like litigation costs under those alternative regimes would be zero. At the end of the day, the free-rider problem is a real economic problem and permitting it undermines market efficiency. One can imagine alternative models for addressing it, but those frameworks will have a cost too.

> It also enables business models that allow taking money from people without contributing anything at all.

That incorrectly assumes that the only "contribution" is producing an end-user product. ARM, for example, doesn't produce end-user products. You can't go to ARM and buy Cortex A72 CPUs. When MediaTek produces an SoC integrating an ARM core, is the license fee an example of ARM simply "sharing profits without doing the work?"

> The downstream blocking effect of existing monopoly grants on incentives for future innovation has greatly increased in recent decades because modern products are made up of so many different components.

Hold-up problems are real, and there is a real question of how to properly value all the technologies that go into a modern product.

> I.e., you're not paying for an invention, you're paying for a standard, and making standards is not something that requires external incentives.

If standards don't embody important technical contributions, then why don't implementers rush to create alternative, unpatented standards? 802.11 has been out for more than two decades. Why do implementer companies continue to pay for each new generation of 802.11, instead of developing their own? If the choices truly are arbitrary, it should be trivial to avoid the relevant patents (indeed, everything in 802.11a should be out of patent by now, or close to it).

The idea that alternative monetization strategies are workable in the large scale is almost self-refuting. Patents don't preclude you from developing technology and releasing it into the public domain, so long as you get there first. But it seems like companies motivated by patent protection consistently "get there first." That is itself a validation of the incentive structure created by patents.

Re: The Case Against Patents (2013)

#72
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that this would be an efficient use of anyone's time but... Assuming the purpose of patents is 1) to eliminate trade secrets, 2) that patents must be novel, and 3) that patents must be non-obvious to someone skilled in the art, then perhaps a solution would be: take a handful of people skilled in the art, tell half of them to implement the patent and tell the other half only the end goal and see if any of them co…

the costs of your system are probably way more than the value created for society via patents.

> the costs of your system are probably way more than the value created for society via patents

Also in the case of MPEG?

Re: The Case Against Patents (2013)

#73
post #65
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You haven't given any evidence that it arose because of that system or in spite of it. There are plenty of examples going back to Singer sewing machines [1] and the Wright Brothers [2] that demonstrate that the surest way to delay the widespread deployment of any transformative technology by many years is to patent it. [1] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1354849 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W…

You can also find dozens of examples where investors pour billions of dollars into developing technology because they know they can patent it and won’t immediately be undercut by free riders. I’m typing this on a machine that has CPU technology licensed from ARM, GPU technology licensed from Imagination Technologies, and cellular technology licensed from dozens of companies. Those companies did, in fact , invest in a…

The claim wasn't that the system is "unworkable" in the sense that it's causing world hunger or something, but that the system doesn't "work" in the sense that, in aggregate, it's not "promoting progress of the useful arts."

People will certainly use patent protection where it is available to them, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't have invested in those technologies solely on the basis of first mover advantage [0], and the lack of any observed effect of strengthening the patent system and increasing the scope of what is patentable on R&D spending tends to back that up.

[0] ARM would need a different business model, but it's unclear to me that other business models (i.e., Intel's) wouldn't have been just as successful, and wouldn't come with the social deadweight loss of patent trolls highlighted in the article.

Re: The Case Against Patents (2013)

#74
post #52
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suggesting that they’re “impossible to execute” correctly is a bit odd, as all US technology arose in the context of the patent system (the first Patent Act predates the Constitution).

You haven't given any evidence that it arose because of that system or in spite of it. There are plenty of examples going back to Singer sewing machines [1] and the Wright Brothers [2] that demonstrate that the surest way to delay the widespread deployment of any transformative technology by many years is to patent it. [1] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1354849 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W…

Not everyone agrees about the aviation patents:

"We show that despite the existence of basic aircraft patents, aircraft manufacturers faced no patent barriers in the market dominated by government demand. We show that the notion of the aircraft patent hold-up is a myth created by government officials and used to persuade the Congress to authorize eminent domain condemnation of basic aircraft patent" https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2355673

Re: The Case Against Patents (2013)

#75
post #24

Drug patents are ten years. It's common to say without patents no drug company would spend the billions it takes to bring one drug to market. But I remember doing the back of the envelope math in college on the socially optimal length of a drug patent based on the cost, profit motive and public benefit, and it worked out to only about three years.

> doing the back of the envelope math in college

Sounds rigorous

Re: The Case Against Patents (2013)

#76
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drug patents on their own represent a 1 Trillion dollar industry world wide. So, I doubt that's true. Really the patent office could spend 100 billion per year and still be a net gain for society. The problem seems to be many people have a lot to gain from a broken patent system, and most people don't care.

It's not exactly clear if patents help or harm the drug industry. It's clear they play some very important roles, and the entire industry is structured around them. So, I sympathize with people that think it's too risky to change them. But I can't agree with that certainty on your comment.

Drugs are trivial to reverse engineer vs develop. So, without patents their would be zero incentive for private drug R&D funding.

It's very clear that patents are required by the drug industry before they will invest in Research or as often happens buy companies that have done research.

Now, if we give up all private R&D we could still manufacture existing drugs at much lower prices. But, turning over all drug research to non for profits and governments is a very steep price to pay.

PS: Ok their are some game theory based approaches where small countries could benefit from abolishing drug patents while benefiting from other countries research. But, that does not scale worldwide.

Re: The Case Against Patents (2013)

#78
post #9

I never thought that the case for patents was to increase productivity. I always thought that their purpose was to eliminate trade secrets: people are going to invent stuff whether you want to or not, but without patents, they'll take the secrets to the grave. My favourite patent of all time is Michael Jackson's smooth criminal patent: https://mashable.com/2015/03/28/michael-jackson-shoe-patent/... This is the patent…

I mostly read patents about chemistry, materials, and electronics. I find a lot of older patents to be straightforward and informative. Occasionally I will run across a 21st century patent that is as readable, but they're a lot rarer now. If I had to estimate when the transition happened, I'd guess around the 1980s, maybe late 1970s. Weirdly, this is also about the time that academic publications appeared to decline…

At the 70's - 80's our hyperoptimization cycle started. Before that society was focusing on expensive growth, since there was a lot of "empty space" created by the wars and recent science progress.

Re: The Case Against Patents (2013)

#79
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wants? this is the way it has been done for a long long time in the US (the first US patent grant was from George Washington in 1790), there is Property category where there is at least Real Property & Intellectual Property, patents which are in the Intellectual Property 'bucket' so to speak There are multiple of forms of intellectual property beyond patents: copyright, trademarks, etc This is the way the legal syste…

There is no intellectual "property", merely a temporary exclusive grant made by the public to encourage the arts and sciences. To call it "property" is, as I warned, the goal of the "IP" industry in equating a patent as no different from a house and land. Then it magically becomes some sort of right, but one is fundamental a restriction of your own fundamental human rights because a patent can be accidentally infring…

Intellectual property is real. Try stealing some IP from Apple and see what happens -- something real will happen.

IP is as real as any other legal construct, such as, contract rights. The term intellectual property is a term of art that just happens to model some of the analogues that exist between intellectual property, real property, and personal property.

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