WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs • Hacker News Board

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#71

Post by ReverseCold » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:33 PM UTC

RandallBrown wrote: post #68

bkor wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why is it fair to let people and other providers usurp that? If you have a monopoly then there are various restrictions on what you can do. Whatsapp is pretty much the way to communicate within The Netherlands. Other companies which have a monopoly and/or huge market share (e.g. 2 companies which each have 40% of the market). This e.g. resulted in KPN (ADSL/VDSL) being forced to open up their infrastructure. I don'…

Don't you need someones phone number to use WhatsApp? What happens when you just text (SMS) someone instead? Do they refuse to respond?

Well, groups exist. You can't join a WhatsApp group from SMS.

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#72

Post by zentiggr » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:39 PM UTC

qeternity wrote: post #54

bkor wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're just twisting words here. The fact that switching costs are too high means it's superior. I don't see how high switching costs implies superior, nor how that's part of a definition for superior. For superior app I'd consider that to mean if it's better. It's also weird your usage of superior has shifted. You've stated it became bigger because it was superior; meaning superior is not about how much used it is…

What? I never said they were mutually exclusive? Far from a conflict, what you're describing is exactly the network effect: it both became large because it was superior, and it's size/growth contributed to it's superiority. This is the flywheel that is the network effect.

If only that flywheel didn't throw off all common sense and "don't be evil" tendencies... greed dominates eventually and everyone pays the price until a critical tipping point event comes and everyone finally realizes they have to go now.

Those tipping points are just too subtle until after a lot of damage has been done.

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#73

Post by amelius » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:43 PM UTC

devit wrote: post #21

The real problem here is that after this stunt I'd like to completely stop using Whatsapp and switch to something else instead, but I can't because other people use Whatsapp and communicating with other people is essential to me. The problem is there no laws to stop whoever becomes the lucky recipient of such a network effect from doing whatever they want. Instead antitrust law needs to be expanded to consider networ…

> The problem is there no laws to stop whoever becomes the lucky recipient of such a network effect from doing whatever they want.

There's the Telecommunications Act of 1996.

Quoting from Wikipedia:

> Since communications services exhibit network effects and positive externalities, new entrants would face barriers to entry if they could not interconnect their networks with those of the incumbent carriers. Thus, another key provision of the 1996 Act sets obligations for incumbent carriers and new entrants to interconnect their networks with one another, imposing additional requirements on the incumbents because they might desire to restrict competitive entry by denying such interconnection or by setting terms, conditions, and rates that could undermine the ability of the new entrants to compete.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_Act_of_1996

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#74

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:48 PM UTC

qeternity wrote: post #62

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you are essentially saying that network effects don't exist, then, right? The idea of network effects is that they create a cost simply for individually choosing an uncommon option, after all other costs and benefits have been accounted for. Which would obviously imply that they create an incentive to choose a common option even if it were an inferior choice without the network effect, as long as the benefits of…

It may seem pedantic to you, but network effect creates a benefit, not a cost. That may create an opportunity cost for those not in the network, but it's not a direct cost. This distinction is actually very important. Also, how did I imply network effect doesn't exist? Where did I say anything that you're implying I said? You're trying to strip out the network effect from this theoretical product and I'm saying you c…

> It may seem pedantic to you, but network effect creates a benefit, not a cost. That may create an opportunity cost for those not in the network, but it's not a direct cost. This distinction is actually very important.

So, it's a cost, but not a cost? What's your point?

Also, the network effect doesn't create a benefit. The benefit of using a network (and thus the cost of not using the network) is simply what we call the network effect.

Other than that I have no clue what point you are actually trying to make, and it all smells like a whole lot of equivocation and missing the point.

Do you agree that it is possible to have a situation where one product dominates the market because individuals making rational decisions prefer that dominating product because of its dominance, even though a different product would be beneficial for every consumer of the currently dominating product if they magically agreed on switching over, even when considering the switching costs (other than the costs of reaching agreement, which is assumed to be zero for this hypothetical case)?

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#75

Post by arkadiytehgraet » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:52 PM UTC

Fnoord wrote: post #42

Freak_NL wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sucks. Here in the Netherlands, WhatsApp is used by the vast majority of people. The holdouts (like me) consist of people who don't want to deal with smartphones (some elderly, some who deliberately avoid them because of addictive behaviour), or who own a smartphone, but don't agree with WhatsApp's terms of use (essentially paying for access with your data). Not using WhatsApp has consequences. We sometimes miss o…

> To participate in some parts of society WhatsApp is now a de facto requirement. A whole nation blindly agrees to whatever terms of use Facebook drafts. Same if you don't have a Facebook account. Speaking of which, WhatsApp was the defacto IM standard before it was bought by Facebook. Previously it was MSN Messenger (or whatever it is called these days. Skype?) and that was horrible as well. XMMP was at least federa…

Have you actually seen the implementation of the WhatsApp clients on iOS / Android? How can you say that the data is E2EE when there are no sources, no verifiable builds, nothing but just statements that "yes, we do use E2EE"?

On the contrary, you have open protocol with verifiable implementation and available sources of the Telegram client for mobile platforms; yet you automatically disregard it just because it is not developed by Moxie or whatever.

I am still baffled how people completely turn off their critical thinking when it comes to encryption; I guess this is a fine example how marketing actually works well.

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#76

Post by 52-6F-62 » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:54 PM UTC

furyg3 wrote: post #57

Freak_NL wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sucks. Here in the Netherlands, WhatsApp is used by the vast majority of people. The holdouts (like me) consist of people who don't want to deal with smartphones (some elderly, some who deliberately avoid them because of addictive behaviour), or who own a smartphone, but don't agree with WhatsApp's terms of use (essentially paying for access with your data). Not using WhatsApp has consequences. We sometimes miss o…

To be fair, my Signal list of contacts keeps growing here in NL. I do some light proselytizing, but it seems to be moving along on it's own. Hopefully Arjan Lubach (Holland's Jon Oliver) will do a hit-peice on WhatsApp like he did on Facebook at some point in the future. I'd like to delete WhatsApp, but any conversation I have in Signal vs WhatsApp is a small victory that I'll take. If at some point more than 50% of…

Signal seems to be growing here in Toronto as well.

I'm virtually ostracized by my lack of social media engagement so my list is short, but I encouraged my girlfriend to pick it up after the more public Facebook fiascos as she was a heavy Messenger user.

As soon as she installed it, she found a good selection of her contact list was already on there, including her company's owner. Her major concern was keeping in touch with friends and family in Montana, California, and BC. She's still stuck between the two apps because of coworkers, employees, and other holdouts, though.

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#77

Post by midasz » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:56 PM UTC

Freak_NL wrote: post #23

devit wrote: post #21

The real problem here is that after this stunt I'd like to completely stop using Whatsapp and switch to something else instead, but I can't because other people use Whatsapp and communicating with other people is essential to me. The problem is there no laws to stop whoever becomes the lucky recipient of such a network effect from doing whatever they want. Instead antitrust law needs to be expanded to consider networ…

It sucks. Here in the Netherlands, WhatsApp is used by the vast majority of people. The holdouts (like me) consist of people who don't want to deal with smartphones (some elderly, some who deliberately avoid them because of addictive behaviour), or who own a smartphone, but don't agree with WhatsApp's terms of use (essentially paying for access with your data). Not using WhatsApp has consequences. We sometimes miss o…

I just made the choice to do it. I let my contacts know I'd no longer be available on WhatsApp - but they can reach me through calling, email, text/signal.

I'm definitely missing out on some interactions but at the end of the day, who cares? If it's really that important I'll get the message another way. I know it's the reality now that most parents/schools use WhatsApp but that's not a reason to not want change. Crucial information should be sent via email anyways.

I also think this is the only way to actually move off the platform. You can't half-ass it, because why would others move away when you're still available?

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#78

Post by Fnoord » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:58 PM UTC

arkadiytehgraet wrote: post #75

Fnoord wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To participate in some parts of society WhatsApp is now a de facto requirement. A whole nation blindly agrees to whatever terms of use Facebook drafts. Same if you don't have a Facebook account. Speaking of which, WhatsApp was the defacto IM standard before it was bought by Facebook. Previously it was MSN Messenger (or whatever it is called these days. Skype?) and that was horrible as well. XMMP was at least federa…

Have you actually seen the implementation of the WhatsApp clients on iOS / Android? How can you say that the data is E2EE when there are no sources, no verifiable builds, nothing but just statements that "yes, we do use E2EE"? On the contrary, you have open protocol with verifiable implementation and available sources of the Telegram client for mobile platforms; yet you automatically disregard it just because it is n…

Yes, WhatsApp is proprietary software and you did describe some issues. However, the context of the discussion is finding a WhatsApp alternative and rolling it out; Telegram is not a viable alternative. The point never was we should stick to WhatsApp.

If the standards Telegram opted not to use are broken we can all be easily hacked. So avoiding those standards just for the sake of using your own, is snake oil. Thinking you know better than the consensus of the whole security community is, in this case, unnecessarily arrogant and harmful.

[EDIT]I'll edit my post since I can't reply:

WhatsApp has E2EE, but you cannot verify the source.

Telegram uses home brew crypto. Stop distracting the reader from that, you scum.

As for the issues with Telegram it isn't "one" security researcher.

I found 2 in 30 seconds: Matthew Green and Micah Lee [1] [2]

[1] https://medium.com/@thegrugq/operational-telegram-cbbaadb901...

[2] https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2016/06/comparing_mes...

[/EDIT]

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#79

Post by paulie_a » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 3:13 PM UTC

Freak_NL wrote: post #23

devit wrote: post #21

The real problem here is that after this stunt I'd like to completely stop using Whatsapp and switch to something else instead, but I can't because other people use Whatsapp and communicating with other people is essential to me. The problem is there no laws to stop whoever becomes the lucky recipient of such a network effect from doing whatever they want. Instead antitrust law needs to be expanded to consider networ…

It sucks. Here in the Netherlands, WhatsApp is used by the vast majority of people. The holdouts (like me) consist of people who don't want to deal with smartphones (some elderly, some who deliberately avoid them because of addictive behaviour), or who own a smartphone, but don't agree with WhatsApp's terms of use (essentially paying for access with your data). Not using WhatsApp has consequences. We sometimes miss o…

If family members don't invite you to events because of the lack of whatsapp, you probably are not very close.

Re: WhatsApp sends Cease and Desists for apps that use native Android APIs

#80

Post by zhte415 » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 3:21 PM UTC

qeternity wrote: post #62

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you are essentially saying that network effects don't exist, then, right? The idea of network effects is that they create a cost simply for individually choosing an uncommon option, after all other costs and benefits have been accounted for. Which would obviously imply that they create an incentive to choose a common option even if it were an inferior choice without the network effect, as long as the benefits of…

It may seem pedantic to you, but network effect creates a benefit, not a cost. That may create an opportunity cost for those not in the network, but it's not a direct cost. This distinction is actually very important. Also, how did I imply network effect doesn't exist? Where did I say anything that you're implying I said? You're trying to strip out the network effect from this theoretical product and I'm saying you c…

Are you in the second year of a degree in economics? What you write is textbook.

What's your planned thesis?