Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Hire Family People

37signals.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 157 posts

Re: Hire Family People

#71

Post by brlewis »

pg wrote: post #55
thaumaturgy wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pg has been specifically keeping the definition of "startup" narrow, to describe only the businesses that go through the two-guys-plus-vc-plus-sleepless-nights-equals-fast-megabucks pattern that we saw in 2000. I think that's the model he's most interested in, that he sees as the most dynamic and rewarding. Shiny. That said, the things you describe closely match what I've wanted to pursue. For me, and many others, it…

pg has been specifically keeping the definition of "startup" narrow Argh. I haven't been doing anything to the definition of the word. I'm just using it as everyone does. Think about newspaper headlines, for example. Wouldn't you be surprised if a company described in a headline as a "startup" turned out to be a shoe repair shop, or Exxon?

Pardon me for quibbling: it's not about potential growth, but about having an extended period of time at the beginning without significant revenue. A shoe repair shop is not a startup because its debt is expected to stop deepening as soon as the doors are open, not because of its limited growth potential.

I got an accountant to do my taxes this year for the first time. He called my sole proprietorship a startup and did the accounting accordingly. Bootstrappers: keep records of all your expenses, even if it takes years for you to get everything going. Eventually it will all be deductible, amortized over 5 years from the time you start getting revenue.

Re: Hire Family People

#72

Post by tptacek »

menloparkbum wrote: post #67
tptacek wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Graham's analogy is more apt that he realizes. Here's where it takes us: Yes, the majority of breakout chains/startups are started as chains/startups. But, plenty of breakout businesses aren't built to scale out fast. Starbucks didn't break out for over a decade. Microsoft didn't get the DOS contract until '81. Meanwhile, lots of small businesses are small deliberately. Thomas Keller isn't franchising Per Se.…

Celebrity chef restaurants are not really businesses - they are more like old-school arts patronages. They are started with funding by rich finance guys who are looking for a hobby project to make themselves feel cooler. The only people who go there are also uber rich finance guys, other people in the celebrity class, and the occasional not-as-rich foodie. As soon as the rich people and celebrities get bored with the…

Charlie Trotter, Frontera, French Laundry, Babbo. All successful businesses. That there are unsuccessful businesses in the same category does not make them "old-school arts patronages".

Re: Hire Family People

#73

Post by ashu »

tptacek wrote: post #51
dhh wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, our primary metric is profit. But you're otherwise completely correct. We're interested in growing profit, growing customers, and growing influence the best we can. If that happens to lead to a billion-dollar company, awesome. But the odds of business tells us that's probably not overly likely, so we're making sure we'll be happy even if that doesn't happen. (Who knew merely being satisfied with millions --…

It is crazy to think that the perceived odds of building a billion-dollar company are less for a small established team already making millions of dollars than they are for a 3-month old team with $20,000 in the bank. But people do perceive the world that way.

I don't get it - who compared the odds anywhere in this discussion? It seems to me that the goals are just completely different. DHH is not explicitly aiming to grow the company into a billion dollar mammoth. A startup and its investors are very explicitly aiming for that (or somewhere close). Both are viable but completely different ecosystems.

Re: Hire Family People

#74

Post by tptacek »

ashu wrote: post #73
tptacek wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is crazy to think that the perceived odds of building a billion-dollar company are less for a small established team already making millions of dollars than they are for a 3-month old team with $20,000 in the bank. But people do perceive the world that way.

I don't get it - who compared the odds anywhere in this discussion? It seems to me that the goals are just completely different. DHH is not explicitly aiming to grow the company into a billion dollar mammoth. A startup and its investors are very explicitly aiming for that (or somewhere close). Both are viable but completely different ecosystems.

You are, I believe, almost completely wrong.

You've assumed that 37Signals refusal to staff up and take speculative VC rounds means they're steering the ship away from being "a billion dollar mammoth". But 37Signals is more successful than most of the companies (yes, most) that take VC rounds, and has enviable revenue growth.

I think you're seeing a business model that doesn't fit the YC get-rich-quick mold --- and that's what it is, read the essays --- and pushing it into a "small business" bucket. The real world doesn't bucket like you want it to.

Re: Hire Family People

#75

Post by attack »

tptacek wrote: post #52
attack wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet that I'll be in that exact same position in 10 years. All of us will.

Yes. That position is known in the social sciences as your prime earning years .

I suppose the ss people don't measure based on wage? Interesting.

Re: Hire Family People

#76

Post by [deleted] »

raghus wrote: post #21
pg wrote: post #13

Even if people with kids were more productive per hour, that's not enough in a real startup. The empirical evidence is pretty clear on that. I can't think of a successful startup whose founders didn't, in addition to being smart and determined etc, also work long hours.

I am curious: do any of the founders of YC companies have kids?

[deleted]

Re: Hire Family People

#77

Post by menloparkbum »

tptacek wrote: post #72
menloparkbum wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Celebrity chef restaurants are not really businesses - they are more like old-school arts patronages. They are started with funding by rich finance guys who are looking for a hobby project to make themselves feel cooler. The only people who go there are also uber rich finance guys, other people in the celebrity class, and the occasional not-as-rich foodie. As soon as the rich people and celebrities get bored with the…

Charlie Trotter, Frontera, French Laundry, Babbo. All successful businesses. That there are unsuccessful businesses in the same category does not make them "old-school arts patronages".

The economics of celebrity chef restaurants are so different from anything else that they resemble arts patronages more than they resemble the economics of other businesses, including other restaurants.

You have to already be famous to start one, you have to have met a rich guy who thinks investing in you will make him cool, you only cater to a class of people who in previous centuries would be known as "the aristocracy." Etc.

Re: Hire Family People

#78

Post by tptacek »

menloparkbum wrote: post #67
tptacek wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Graham's analogy is more apt that he realizes. Here's where it takes us: Yes, the majority of breakout chains/startups are started as chains/startups. But, plenty of breakout businesses aren't built to scale out fast. Starbucks didn't break out for over a decade. Microsoft didn't get the DOS contract until '81. Meanwhile, lots of small businesses are small deliberately. Thomas Keller isn't franchising Per Se.…

Celebrity chef restaurants are not really businesses - they are more like old-school arts patronages. They are started with funding by rich finance guys who are looking for a hobby project to make themselves feel cooler. The only people who go there are also uber rich finance guys, other people in the celebrity class, and the occasional not-as-rich foodie. As soon as the rich people and celebrities get bored with the…

Also: be more right. =)

From the site:

Opened in May 2005, Mr. Kokonas says Alinea grossed $3.5 million its first year, an average of $14,000 for every night it was open. There are eight investors: The smallest stake was $75,000, the largest Mr. Kokonas', at just less than $500,000. Return on investment is expected to exceed 20% per year, he says.

This doesn't sound like an old-school arts patronage to me.

Re: Hire Family People

#79

Post by tptacek »

menloparkbum wrote: post #77
tptacek wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charlie Trotter, Frontera, French Laundry, Babbo. All successful businesses. That there are unsuccessful businesses in the same category does not make them "old-school arts patronages".

The economics of celebrity chef restaurants are so different from anything else that they resemble arts patronages more than they resemble the economics of other businesses, including other restaurants. You have to already be famous to start one, you have to have met a rich guy who thinks investing in you will make him cool, you only cater to a class of people who in previous centuries would be known as "the aristocr…

Still wrong: Keller wasn't famous before French Laundry, Bayless is famous because of Frontera. Support claims with evidence.

Re: Hire Family People

#80

Post by tptacek »

cellis wrote: post #54

I'll admit, DHH coming into Hacker News is a breath of fresh air, even if a few of the 20-somethings here (including myself) can sniff out the psuedo-defeatist , "statistically its not possible" scent it is tinged with. I think, on the whole of things, pg isn't out to attract the type of people that want to start the types of business DHH is talking about. I think pg is set out to do the same thing VC's do (invest in…

DHH is saying that your dreams should have to do with the merits of your offering, not the strength of your cap table. You're caricaturing him.
Post reply on HN