The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy • Hacker News Board

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#71

Post by JBReefer » Mon, May 28, 2018, 5:12 PM UTC

tscs37 wrote: post #18

mrybczyn wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet it's more than 90.1% of the population posesses... Interestingly, some estimates of (formal) Polish aristocracy in the 17th century place it around 10% of the population. Maybe this is just some natural distribution of socio-econo-political status of human groups.

As another comment here pointed out; 90.1% possess about 30% of the wealth. 9% possess another 30% of the wealth. The remaining 0.9% possess the rest. Is the 9% to blame for inequality?

The American left is heavily reliant on contributions from the new 0.1% that is SV tech money. There's been a pretty noticeable drop in redistributive rhetoric in the last 10 years.

I blame Larry Ellison for inequality wayyyyyyy more than anyone that works for him. When you've been out of power for this long (presidency doesn't count because he has very little real power compared to the House and State Gov't) you have to be _really_ careful about biting the hand that feeds you.

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#72

Post by tachyonbeam » Mon, May 28, 2018, 5:15 PM UTC

leetcrew wrote: post #13

> Every piece of the pie picked up by the 0.1 percent, in relative terms, had to come from the people below. this statement is literally true, but aside from "in relative terms", the wording of the whole sentence seems to evoke a zero sum game. I see this type of writing in most articles about inequality and I wish the authors would strive to be more explicit. it's an important distinction, even if we agree that rela…

Except it isn't really true. Much of the economic recovery post 2008 was fueled by the FED buying assets. They've been buying stocks and bonds to keep the prices rising. So the FED has been directly handing money to people who own stocks and bonds. We can argue as to whether this is better, worse or functionally equivalent to directly taking money from the middle class, but it isn't exactly the same thing.

I personally wish that instead of printing money to buy stocks and bonds, they had enacted something like UBI instead. Give the money you're printing to people who need it. I think it's actually better for a capitalist economy, because then corporations still need to compete to get that money from consumers, instead of just being bailed out, which rewards failing corporations.

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#73

Post by asdffdsa321 » Mon, May 28, 2018, 5:15 PM UTC

zjaffee wrote: post #51

jokoon wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. What the article is trying to point out is that the 9.9% thinks he's not so wealthy, so he is against inequality, but he still, somehow, for his own comfort and merit belief system, likes his higher income. Trying to talk about ranges of income, would it the top N%, is pointless. You could strip out the hypocrisy like so: "I am not at the top, so I am still against inequality, but I am comfortable, but si…

This is a big debate in the HN world too, where tech workers in that top 10% think they are working class. The real breakdown here is that in todays day and age, there's hardly a middle class, there's the working class who struggles, lives basically paycheck to paycheck, and at the age of 45 has up to 40k in wealth to their name. Then there's that top 10% whose able to afford a million dollar home, take yearly vacati…

Huh? That's entirely incorrect. There's definitely a middle class that isn't working paycheck to paycheck but can't afford million dollar homes, vacas and college for their kids.

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#74

Post by seibelj » Mon, May 28, 2018, 5:25 PM UTC

AstralStorm wrote: post #67

seibelj wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that we should let students from poor towns go to awesome schools in rich towns even if they aren’t residents of the rich town. The wealthy self-segregate by limiting low-income housing in their area to keep out the poors. Similarly I think it should be easy to create a new school (charter or whatever you want to call it) to compete with bad schools in poor districts. But even without option 2, option 1 would…

It is not just this. Pulling strings without separating out housing is enough. If you build a new school it will still start or with the segregated out "worse material". The only way out is indeed to forcibly randomize and disperse - Even then there will be local social clustering.

I don’t want to forcibly do anything. I want to unshackle market forces to solve the problem in a better way. Don’t ban poor people from your town. Don’t create a monopoly on local education. The rules should forcibly ensure competition rather than forcibly control how people live and get educated.

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#75

Post by dcre » Mon, May 28, 2018, 5:29 PM UTC

sologoub wrote: post #45

p49k wrote: post #8

Rebuttal from Slate: https://slate.com/business/2018/05/forget-the-atlantics-9-9-...

Key paragraph: “He neglects to mention that many of them are actually just retirees. According to Saez and Zucman, whose data Stewart uses, more than 40 percent of all wealth belonging to Americans between and 90th and 99th percentiles is held by the the elderly, meaning age 65 or older. This is what makes wealth data a tricky way to measure class below the very tiptop of the distribution. Stewart’s “9.9 percent” inc…

That doesn’t really undermine the idea that this is a set of citizens who systematically block egalitarian social change. There are many mechanisms through which that happens — local government and real estate just as much as elite academic and cultural institutions.

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#76

Post by jadedhacker » Mon, May 28, 2018, 5:29 PM UTC

mozumder wrote: post #12

Class differentiation is the central meaning of life. The struggle is the point. You get up and wear nice clothes in the morning so that you're better than the slob that doesn't. Nobody wants to be the same as everyone else. If everyone was equal, then there would be no point in your existence. You become a bag of mostly water. Celebrate the fact that a few billionaires and royalty and celebrities exists. Life is mor…

> Class differentiation is the central meaning of life.

This is patently not true. We overthrew kings, introduced democracy, and eliminated slavery. Every time we have made people more equal, our society has become more open and less morally repugnant.

Trying to be the winner of class competition is vulgar Marxism. You don't need so many things to be happy in life, nor do you need to dominate others. You merely need your life essentials, freedom of movement, friends, family, and meaningful work. None of those things require domination.

Obviously everyone will lead a different life, but you don't need to suck up resources like a black hole to do so.

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#77

Post by danharaj » Mon, May 28, 2018, 5:30 PM UTC

djajshgsjja wrote: post #44

danharaj wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you own, e.g. stock doesn't mean you control the underlying means of production it represents a share of. Most people who own stock do so as part of a retirement fund. Those institutional investors, banks, managers, politicians, corporate board members, CEO's, etc. Are the ones who actually control capital. It should be emphasized that a lot of how capitalism runs these days is in the hands of huge burea…

All those people you listed are still cogs in the machine, to varying degrees. The CEOs are beholden to the boards, who are beholden to the institutional investors, who manage my 401k. Certainly, the CEOs have higher leverage over the system on an individual basis. But anyone whose wealth is increasing mainly through return on capital is a member, if not a leader, of the capitalist class.

Sure, they're all beholden to each other but they're the ones who make the decisions about how to allocate the means of production and which labor power to buy.

People who derive their income primarily from investments but don't really decide anything or buy labor power are a rung below those who do. Taxonomize it however you want provided the distinction remains.

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#78

Post by spaceman1331 » Mon, May 28, 2018, 5:31 PM UTC

> you're probably part of the problem

> YOU'RE PROBABLY PART OF THE PROBLEM

> YOU'RE PART OF THE PROBLEM

> YOU'RE THE PROBLEM

Take up the White Man’s burden—

Send forth the best ye breed—

Go send your sons to exile

To serve your captives' need

-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Man%27s_Burden

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#79

Post by spicymaki » Mon, May 28, 2018, 5:31 PM UTC

The reporting on this seems rather empty. Yes economic inequality is growing, yes the new rich are delusional about it, and yes that will lead to economic and social catastrophe. Elites like being elite because it excludes everyone else. That’s the point of it. How do you convince those in power to not consolidate it and pass it on to their offspring?

Re: The 9.9 Percent Is the New American Aristocracy

#80

Post by danharaj » Mon, May 28, 2018, 5:32 PM UTC

spicymaki wrote: post #79

The reporting on this seems rather empty. Yes economic inequality is growing, yes the new rich are delusional about it, and yes that will lead to economic and social catastrophe. Elites like being elite because it excludes everyone else. That’s the point of it. How do you convince those in power to not consolidate it and pass it on to their offspring?

Insurrection, if it comes to that?