Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Intel accused of age discrimination

theverge.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–78 of 78 posts

Re: Intel accused of age discrimination

#71

Post by croon »

fma wrote: post #66
croon wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I can't wait to get pay deducted for days when you remove fluff from the code base or refactor code into more readable and efficient software. Lines-of-code/time is a terrible measurement.

My comment was actually sarcasm...because you can't measure middle managers and executives output by lines of code since they don't actually code but more often than not they are the ones pushing for LOC measurment - or some other objective measurement, when they themselves have no quantitative way to measure output.

Fair enough, I didn't pick up on that.

I fully agree with that last comment.

Re: Intel accused of age discrimination

#73

Post by danieltillett »

mmt wrote: post #68
danieltillett wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems the same response has come up a few times here. Everyone starts out at a relatively low level, rises to a max and then decline as they age. Some people reach such a high level that even in decline they are still very productive. I like to think I am one of these people ;) Just because something is hard to measure with certainty does not mean that it can't be measured. While your boss might not be able to pre…

> Everyone starts out at a relatively low level, rises to a max and then decline as they age > While your boss might not be able to precisely measure your productivity they will likely have a pretty good idea. You've repeatedly asserted both of these points but haven't pointed to any evidence to back them up. I think most commenters here are being particularly polite in talking about the imprecision or difficulty in…

I can’t believe that anyone thinks the brain is somehow the only organ of the human body that does not decline with age - as for evidence start with the wiki page on this topic [0].

Once again I can’t believe that people think their boss(es) don’t know how productive they are. While it is not easy and mistakes are often made, it is not difficult to know approximately how productive your reports are. If as a boss you don’t know this you should be fired for incompetence.

Everyone declines with age, but not everyone gets dementia. You have made an extraordinary claim that there are some people that don’t suffer cognitive decline as they age. Are you able to provide any evidence to back up this claim?

0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aging_brain

Re: Intel accused of age discrimination

#74

Post by danieltillett »

theothermkn wrote: post #64
danieltillett wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless the bosses at Intel just hate older people (unlikely as they are almost all older people) they are doing this for economic reasons alone. I say this as someone already over-the-hill age wise that we really need to find a way to allow people as they age to be able to accept a lower wage that matches their productivity. Far fewer old people would be made redundant if they got a wage cut every year instead of a r…

> Unless the bosses at Intel just hate older people (unlikely as they are almost all older people) they are doing this for economic reasons alone. This is the most exemplary statement of naive (very probably American) class unconsciousness I’ve ever seen on HN. The distinction is between owners/managers and workers. First, an older member of the petty bourgeoisie is “bought in” as an effective part of the machinery o…

I am not American. As for nuance you should try to avoid confusing a description of why something happens with approval of the action.

Older workers as a group are fired for one reason; they are as a group more expensive and less productive than younger workers. Denying this reality does not help anyone, most certainly not older workers.

Re: Intel accused of age discrimination

#75

Post by mmt »

danieltillett wrote: post #73
mmt wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone starts out at a relatively low level, rises to a max and then decline as they age > While your boss might not be able to precisely measure your productivity they will likely have a pretty good idea. You've repeatedly asserted both of these points but haven't pointed to any evidence to back them up. I think most commenters here are being particularly polite in talking about the imprecision or difficulty in…

I can’t believe that anyone thinks the brain is somehow the only organ of the human body that does not decline with age - as for evidence start with the wiki page on this topic [0]. Once again I can’t believe that people think their boss(es) don’t know how productive they are. While it is not easy and mistakes are often made, it is not difficult to know approximately how productive your reports are. If as a boss you…

> I can’t believe that anyone thinks the brain is somehow the only organ of the human body that does not decline with age

You don't have to believe it. Actually, I happen no to. I'm pretty sure the human liver is remarkably good at regenerating itself and so, as an organ, does not decline stricly with age.

>as for evidence start with the wiki page on this topic

Oddly, you've linked a Wikipedia page whose first sentence is "Age is a major risk factor for most common neurodegenerative diseases" but then you point out that not everyone gets dementia.

So, let's broaden my claim from "dementia" to "neurodegenerative diseases". Absent one of those (what's the prevalence in the population?), how many people decline? Still 100%?

> Once again I can’t believe that people think their boss(es) don’t know how productive they are.

It's tough to tell if you're being disingenuous here or not. Many commenters on here have a remarkable amount (years if not decades) of first-hand experience of working for managers who clearly did not know, in some cases seeing them bamboozled by other employees successfully taking credit for others' work.

These aren't isolated incidents, and it's why there are reasoned, thoughtful discussions on here about what it even means to be productive as an engineer, as well as how to be a good technical manager who encourages the most productivity in the (now well-understood) absence of the ability to measure it.

>While it is not easy and mistakes are often made, it is not difficult to know approximately how productive your reports are.

"Not easy" and "not difficult" are contradictory.

> You have made an extraordinary claim that there are some people that don’t suffer cognitive decline as they age. Are you able to provide any evidence to back up this claim?

Actually, it's you who've made the extraordinary claim, since it requires showing that every single human declines. To falsify it, I need only a single piece of anecdata, which can be pulled from the comments of this thread or the one about IBM's age discrimination.

Re: Intel accused of age discrimination

#76

Post by OnlyRepliesToBS »

DeusExMachina wrote: post #3

> older workers tend to be better paid So, if the metric is "remove employees that cost the most but don't seem to justify the cost," it's going to look like age discrimination, even if it wasn't. I don't know whether Intel did this or not, but the point is that you can't assume the intent by the result alone.

That's what a class action is for.

They will determine that.

Re: Intel accused of age discrimination

#77

Post by danieltillett »

mmt wrote: post #75
danieltillett wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t believe that anyone thinks the brain is somehow the only organ of the human body that does not decline with age - as for evidence start with the wiki page on this topic [0]. Once again I can’t believe that people think their boss(es) don’t know how productive they are. While it is not easy and mistakes are often made, it is not difficult to know approximately how productive your reports are. If as a boss you…

> I can’t believe that anyone thinks the brain is somehow the only organ of the human body that does not decline with age You don't have to believe it. Actually, I happen no to. I'm pretty sure the human liver is remarkably good at regenerating itself and so, as an organ, does not decline stricly with age. >as for evidence start with the wiki page on this topic Oddly, you've linked a Wikipedia page whose first senten…

We seem to be talking past each other, but if you can find one person in the world who has not declined (i.e. aged) with increasing years please post as we need to study this person in incredible detail. I am not joking as this is literally a matter of life and death for billions of people.

Re: Intel accused of age discrimination

#78

Post by mmt »

danieltillett wrote: post #77
mmt wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can’t believe that anyone thinks the brain is somehow the only organ of the human body that does not decline with age You don't have to believe it. Actually, I happen no to. I'm pretty sure the human liver is remarkably good at regenerating itself and so, as an organ, does not decline stricly with age. >as for evidence start with the wiki page on this topic Oddly, you've linked a Wikipedia page whose first senten…

We seem to be talking past each other, but if you can find one person in the world who has not declined (i.e. aged) with increasing years please post as we need to study this person in incredible detail. I am not joking as this is literally a matter of life and death for billions of people.

What I've been talking about, specifically, is cognitive abilities and your seemingly extraordinary claim (extraordinary because you insist it necessarily applies to every member of the species).

You now seem to have veered off into some kind of far more general discussion of "decline" (aging), which I was not addressing, as the original commenter (and, arguably, TFA) was referring, specifically to "knowledge workers".

If "talking past each other" means that I've been trying to keep my commentary specific to so-called knowledge working productivity and cognitive abilities, while you keep trying to expand the conversation to overall aging, then, yes, that's what's been happening.

Post reply on HN