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Tildes – A non-profit community site driven by its users' interests

blog.tildes.net

71–80 of 104 posts

Re: Tildes – A non-profit community site driven by its users' interests

#71
post #3

Hi HN - I left my job at reddit about a year and a half ago, and a few months later decided to try starting a non-profit and work on building a new site that would be able to address a lot of the issues that I felt were hurting online communities. I've kept it very quiet until recently, but have started telling people about it and inviting them to the alpha over the last couple of weeks. The site's still very minimal…

This looks really cool! There's a lot here that I agree with.

I strongly recommend avoiding the urge to prematurely automate processes involving trust (or granting people additional powers). It would allow you to grow faster, but you don't need to grow fast.

Trust signals are useful when they are costly (at least, costly to fake). And if your site can be driven by an API, that changes what is considered costly. Getting a clique of accounts that upvotes the same way you do is not so costly if you're just driving an API.

It may be counterintuitive, but... imagine you have some metric that you were considering using as a criterion for granting trust to a user. Let's say you've got the "TrollPercent" metric that shows the percentage of someone's content has been tagged as trolling, or the "KeynesianBeautyVoter" metric that shows how well someone's votes correlate with everyone else's. Then rather than automatically changing that account's status on the basis of these metrics, their account is merely flagged for a human to review. A human moderator can then say "oh, that person's content really is a cut above" or "wait, this person has only ever accessed the site via the API and they've somehow upvoted hundreds of posts in the last 10 minutes..."

Anyway, none of this concern is meant to detract from the essential goodness of the idea, and I hope this succeeds.

Re: Tildes – A non-profit community site driven by its users' interests

#72
post #22
post #18

It's been fascinating to watch every online environment almost inevitably turn to mush over time. Of particular interest to me are Wikipedia and StackOverflow, where the pedantic rule-following, rule-enforcing insider group eventually squeezes all joy and then all productive life from the the system. Actually, I have little hope for Wikipedia's solving the problem, due to their governance model and political structur…

> albeit often a wretched hive of scum and villainy depending on subreddit… I'm more concerned about the opposite effect -- that the default subreddits have become pointless and boring, focusing mostly on "funny" images and cat gifs. Gone are the interesting askreddit threads or useful world news commentary, replaced with content designed to keep you browsing and staying on the site longer. At the same time, I think…

If you haven't seen yet, reddit itself is also tilting heavily towards prioritizing funny/quick content (even more than it did before) as well. The new desktop redesign that's in progress has infinite scroll, auto-expanded images and auto-playing gifs/videos, and so on. They also added a new default frontpage sort (that you can't change) that tries to hide any posts you've seen before every time you load it, which kind of destroys the ability to have an ongoing discussion thread.

Re: Tildes – A non-profit community site driven by its users' interests

#73
post #40

I would love to see a federated platform for reddit-like use. Sort of like what Mastodon is to Twitter. Of course I'll admit that it would be probably orders of magnitude more difficult to create, but federation would be a major differentiating factor. Personally I think federation is the only sound architecture for internet systems.

There's been some pie-in-the-sky chatter about that. When the tildes identity system (with the trust and reputation and karma decay) is fully cooked, it might be possible to extend that by setting up a mastodon instance. That's not going to happen for a long time, though. The site itself has to come first.

Re: Tildes – A non-profit community site driven by its users' interests

#74

I've mentioned this for other projects, but why not do the work in the open too? Why not just make the code public as you work on it? It's hard to believe openness and transparency are the goal if there is none during development (even if the code is ugly and you have to turn away too-early assistance/suggestions). No invites, nothing hidden. Also, wrt AGPL, as a contributor I would personally prefer a "commitment" t…

AFAIK it’s literally just a matter of not yet deciding on the license yet which is why deimorz solicited advice about it on the announcement. He already has gitlab set up and we are using it internally. Open Source is coming very soon, we promise.

https://gitlab.com/tildes

Re: Tildes – A non-profit community site driven by its users' interests

#75
post #26

I find the Technical Goals page particularly interesting and debatable: https://docs.tildes.net/technical-goals Accessibility and i18n aren't mentioned which is unfortunate.

A lot of the docs pages are still very scattered and incomplete, but those are definitely things that I should add. Accessibility is definitely important to me, and luckily a lot of it comes naturally because I'm doing things in a very "old school" way like... actually using semantic, hand-written HTML instead of building it as an SPA that outputs unaccessible div-soup. I've done at least some checking to make sure i…

> However, it's definitely a possibility in the future, and the organization of the groups into a hierarchy some some interesting possibilities for it, where different languages could have their own separate group hierarchy.

Finally a Reddit spin-off with a hierarchy! It should do marvels for discoverability, which is dreadful on flat Reddit-like sites.

In my dreams, I'd like an even more Usenet-like system:

* allow each base hierarchy to follow its own set of rules and govern its sub-groups;

* a decentralised system, where each server is free to select which hierarchies it wants to relay or not.

But anyway, even with a single server and single root system, having a hierarchy is already a big 'plus' in terms of organisation.

And if someone really disagrees with the official tildes server governance, since the code is open-sourced, he can launch his own server with his own (disconnected) root hierarchy.

PS: after writing this, I see that the decentralisation matter has a FAQ entry :-)

Re: Tildes – A non-profit community site driven by its users' interests

#76

Is this project trying to do anything to solve/improve manipulation / disinformation by large entities? That's my largest concern in the modern era - information is very difficult to ingest not due to discovery, but trust. One finds it difficult to ingest information from a non-educated domain. Disinformation has made this problem infinitely worse. Thoughts?

We don't have a 'how to' for solving that problem, but yes, everyone wants to stick to fact-based discussions and informed opinions as much as possible.

The site will remain invite-only for a very long time, possibly forever. Tildes tracks who invites whom, and the behavior of the people you invite will reflect on you. If a group of spammers (or stormfront etc) gain a foothold, their entire invite chain can be excised, and they'll be looking for invites again.

Bans matter. Everything on tildes must be earned through the trust system on a per-community basis. Young accounts will not have access to a lot of the site's features, and will only gain access by participating in good faith and getting good feedback (in the form of votes and other metrics) from other users. If the account is banned, they have to re-earn all of that trust.

One of the benefits of not being focused on 'growth at all costs' to please investors is the ability to be more decisive about what users you allow to use the website. The only guideline for that is simple - remain civil. People who behave in a civil manner won't have problems. People who don't, won't be users for long.

This should make it a hell of a lot harder for spammers, trolls, and shills to game the site. Figuring out how to do all this is one of the most active areas of discussion on the site.

Re: Tildes – A non-profit community site driven by its users' interests

#77
post #25
post #18

It's been fascinating to watch every online environment almost inevitably turn to mush over time. Of particular interest to me are Wikipedia and StackOverflow, where the pedantic rule-following, rule-enforcing insider group eventually squeezes all joy and then all productive life from the the system. Actually, I have little hope for Wikipedia's solving the problem, due to their governance model and political structur…

Thanks to pedantic rules, Wikipedia and StackOverflow are the two most useful sites online right now.

Wikipedia is a lot better now, but any site that has hundreds of thousands of words of discussion over which dash to use and when is obviously toxic.

Here is an n-dash, an m-dash, and a hyphen. –,—,-

We expect discussions about wars to be tricky, but we don't expect discussion about the punctuation used in titles to be so hard: Read the "Mexican–American War" / "Mexican—American War" discussion here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mexican%E2%80%93American_...

Here's several thousand words of discussion. (Closed with no consensus) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy...

Look at the word counts for these meta discussions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=dash&pre...

Dashes and hyphens made it to Arbcom (this also has links to various Ani threads): https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitra...

Re: Tildes – A non-profit community site driven by its users' interests

#78
post #12

I'm intrigued, but I think it could use some sort of a demo or something to get an idea of what to expect. As it stands I don't know if I really want an invite, because other than the ideology, which is great, I don't know what is there. (I get that it's a Reddit derivative, but still, I like to play with things before committing to them).

I find it strange. They openly advertise it being open source, yet have no way as of yet to access the source code. Even if they don't want people playing with their instance yet, it would be nice if I could host an instance myself (or at least glance at the code). This is especially egregious as one would hope open source to mean not just availability of source, but an open development model (involving the community in important decisions), which this sets a bad tone for.

The ideology itself seems to be a series of blind nuances, without commitment. They profess to want to balance allowing free speech and having a safe space, yet they don't say where they fall on the spectrum, what criteria they use to determine something being over the line, etc. It's very easy to say you care about these sorts of things, much harder to do so in practice.

Re: Tildes – A non-profit community site driven by its users' interests

#79

Is this project trying to do anything to solve/improve manipulation / disinformation by large entities? That's my largest concern in the modern era - information is very difficult to ingest not due to discovery, but trust. One finds it difficult to ingest information from a non-educated domain. Disinformation has made this problem infinitely worse. Thoughts?

This is a really difficult problem because those large entities often have a ton of resources and can be very persistent about circumventing any ways you try to stop them - it's often literally their job.

One of the core systems that I've been thinking about a lot for Tildes and that we've started talking about is a sort of trust/reputation based one, there's a basic description of it here: https://docs.tildes.net/mechanics-future

If implemented properly, this will mean that for people to build up any significant influence in particular groups in the site, they'll have to participate in them as quality members. That's very difficult to do, and is kind of like that old xkcd comic about turning spammers into constructive participants: https://xkcd.com/810/

Also, by having a decay on the trust/reputation, it makes it even more difficult for them to acquire (including by purchasing, hacking, etc.) a significant number of accounts that can push certain content.

Re: Tildes – A non-profit community site driven by its users' interests

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're in a time where people like to compartmentalize people/views/ideas in order to dismiss or demonize As opposed to exactly what time in the history of humanity where this was not the case?

Maybe I phrased that poorly, because you're right that we've engaged in this 'otherization' since the beginning of time (for good reasons and bad). Maybe a more important factor is that we're increasingly putting OURSELVES into boxes, which increases the polarization of discourse (because now WE identify as a group and not a whole, and those OTHER groups aren't US so clearly they're wrong/bad/etc). This ebbs and flow…

> Maybe a more important factor is that we're increasingly putting OURSELVES into boxes

Tribal identity is also not new. If there is anything new, it is the existence of a situation where identity tribes can be maintained while being geographically diffuse and intermixed with other identity tribes, which makes it less likely for conflict between identity groups to be quickly resolved to a more stable state by the losing group being excluded from a geographically region with residual members being expelled, forcibly converted or voluntarily assimilated into the locally dominant group, or killed.

Arguably, this is in many ways an improvement, though it does make ongoing inter-group invective worse.

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