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NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

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Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#71

Post by poulsbohemian »

rhcom2 wrote: post #62
outside1234 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it crazy to replace the helmets on each major impact? This is a multi billion dollar industry

These players have to start somewhere. A highschool can't eat the cost of multiple helmet replacements.

Agreed, but the hits my nine year old is making playing pee wee league are significantly different than those happening in college, the CFL, and NFL. In the same way that a pro skier in the backcountry uses very different safety equipment than the person on in-bounds groomed snow. This isn't to say that we shouldn't seek to keep kids as safe as possible, just that I don't see an issue in scaling the equipment (and its costs) relative to the risk.

Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#72

Post by jsgo »

poulsbohemian wrote: post #71
rhcom2 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These players have to start somewhere. A highschool can't eat the cost of multiple helmet replacements.

Agreed, but the hits my nine year old is making playing pee wee league are significantly different than those happening in college, the CFL, and NFL. In the same way that a pro skier in the backcountry uses very different safety equipment than the person on in-bounds groomed snow. This isn't to say that we shouldn't seek to keep kids as safe as possible, just that I don't see an issue in scaling the equipment (and it…

Anecdotal, but from what I've heard it tends to be that at the high school and earlier levels hitting is done in a more chaotic manner. Yes, they're not 300-plus pound athletes hitting people, but seems that even in the earlier stages it is detrimental.

Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#73

Post by poulsbohemian »

vermontdevil wrote: post #45
save_ferris wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue with the crash safety comparison is that helmets need to withstand many impacts before being replaced since it would be crazy to replace a helmet every play or two. One possible answer is that, in order to truly solve this problem, the sport must do away with facemasks or helmets altogether. Mike Ditka has long proposed removing the facemask, claiming that it has encouraged players to weaponize their heads…

Rugby does not have a helmet (except for the padded ones) and yet they still have concussion issues. I think there’s no clear answer although I agree about removing face mask. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC155428/

I played organized American Football from the time I was a kid. Went to at the time the biggest high school in the state. I don't recall ever having any kind of head injuries despite getting hit a lot. Went out in college to try Rugby as a club sport. First practice, horrific concussion. I am a sample size of one, but I'd much rather my son play American Football than Rugby. If he gets to the college or pro level, then we can have a John Urshel type conversation about whether to continue.

Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#75

Post by ThirdFoundation »

awakeasleep wrote: post #70
canadaj wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that replacing the helmets after each play or major impact would take time, and the clock doesn't always stop after a play during football. If we stopped the clock to replace a helmet, we open up the possibility of a team using this to slow down an advancing offense, or by an offense to gain a short timeout in a sense. Basically it just doesn't mesh well with the flow of the game.

As someone who doesn't watch much football because the game doesn't seem to have any flow, it's interesting to hear that it is actually a concern. https://www.sportsgrid.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/i3OtXs... https://qz.com/150577/an-average-nfl-game-more-than-100-comm...

These studies never take into account that the game is still ongoing while the ball is not in play. A lot of the game takes place before the snap, as does the strategy. The offense after a big play sometimes struggles to get to the line of scrimmage in time to snap the ball again.

There is a flow and rhythm to the game for those of us who enjoy the sport. Though I can understand where you are coming from.

Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#76

Post by 8note »

jitl wrote: post #2

For those wondering what a finite element model is: > FE models are computational tools developed by breaking an object down into simpler parts (finite elements) and assembling them into a larger system of equations to model an entire structure—this facilitates the efficient analysis of design changes to that structure. FE models have been used to improve designs in many engineered products, including those in the ae…

having a mechanical background: it's a way to define objects so you can throw more hardware at the problem to get better approximations on how they deform and break.

Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#77

Post by jsgo »

gldalmaso wrote: post #22
matte_black wrote: post #10

Only thing safer helmets will do is encourage players to hit harder and harder, until someone really gets killed. I hope one day I will get to see the end of football. Why would any parent enroll their child in this sport?

There are several sports than can be dangerous and involve risk of death, like basically all forms of racing, climbing, endurance, etc. As long as practitioners are educated and consenting, I don't see a problem. The problem is if the those responsible for the athletes are not upfront on the risks, or if the athlete is not able to make a proper judgement to consent, like a child.

Racing is the closest, but with climbing and endurance, you're battling the environment and yourself. In football, the person going after you provides a factor you really can't plan for.

Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#78

Post by throwawayjava »

awakeasleep wrote: post #70
canadaj wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that replacing the helmets after each play or major impact would take time, and the clock doesn't always stop after a play during football. If we stopped the clock to replace a helmet, we open up the possibility of a team using this to slow down an advancing offense, or by an offense to gain a short timeout in a sense. Basically it just doesn't mesh well with the flow of the game.

As someone who doesn't watch much football because the game doesn't seem to have any flow, it's interesting to hear that it is actually a concern. https://www.sportsgrid.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/i3OtXs... https://qz.com/150577/an-average-nfl-game-more-than-100-comm...

Parent is referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurry-up_offense

Another interesting thing: one major advantage of speed is actually slowing the game down.

E.g., if you move quickly between plays, you can catch the other team with too many men on the field during a substitution. in that case, you sometimes get a "free throw" (if the play works out, you decline the "too many players on field" penalty; but if the play doesn't work out or the other team intercepts the ball, you take the penalty and pretend like the failed play didn't even happen.

So you can actually increase the length of the game by moving quickly in-between plays...

Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#79

Post by kingkongjaffa »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #69
kingkongjaffa wrote: post #3

You really need accurate material models for this to be any use. Without being able to validate the baseline condition using the same non-linear, anisotropic, material behaviour profiles, there's no way to develop new geometry and/or use novel materials, and actually prove it's better than before. They would ideally release their own, repeatable analysis files of their own benchmark condition. I suspect the best helm…

>Curious why they wouldn't just drop their funding on a grant for research in any top10 mechanical engineering department That's wishful thinking for the most part. I spent a fair bit of time as a student employee a ME department. Students who have little real world experience, assignments with specific criteria they need to fill and a handful of other classes and activities competing for their time are not the kind…

Working research departments != students.

Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#80

Post by ggg9990 »

adventured wrote: post #36
ggg9990 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has a violence fetish, the same way that the UK has a class fetish. The football quarterback is the highest status kid in the school because he is the leader of an organization demonstrated to deliver and endure violence.

Your premise is very weak in relation to US sports being a supporting argument. It comes across as though you've never actually played football or been on a football team. Players on one team largely go out of their way to avoid injuring players on the other team. The vast majority of the game is free motion, not the application of violence. Another large fraction of the game is what can best be described as aggressi…

Perhaps a military metaphor is best —- the QB role is no more violent than Army general, and the players and soldiers are the ones who are most sickened by the violence and injury. That doesn’t change the fact that both football and war have fans who watch on TV and love to see the biggest hits and biggest bombs.
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