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Male Sexlessness Is Rising, but Not for the Reasons Incels Claim

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Re: Male Sexlessness Is Rising, but Not for the Reasons Incels Claim

#71

Post by mercer »

PurpleBoxDragon wrote: post #31

>In other words, incels are right to see themselves as part of a novel and fairly extreme change in our society's sexual behavior, with a growing share of sexless young men. While a lot of it, including the very name, revolves around sex, I think it is important to consider the lack of emotional intimacy such relationships provide and if there is any correlation between lack of any romantic partner ships and lack of…

> While a lot of it, including the very name, revolves around sex, I think it is important to consider the lack of emotional intimacy such relationships provide and if there is any correlation between lack of any romantic partner ships and lack of close friendships. Completely lacking both would indicate a very isolated individual, which isn't good for mental health.

From what I know of the incel 'community', it really is less about 'just' sex, and pretty much always about intimacy in a broader sense. Furthermore, while I don't know if this applies to most 'incels', it often does seem to be much broader kind of loneliness than just a lack of intimacy with the other sex.

I suppose that shouldn't really be surprising, as I know plenty of 'involuntarily celibate men' who are otherwise relatively happy with all sorts of friendships and communities, and have no need/desire to join a community centered around that celibacy.

Re: Male Sexlessness Is Rising, but Not for the Reasons Incels Claim

#72

Post by tathougies »

insickness wrote: post #62
tathougies wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> cut off from the sexual marketplace. Sex is not a marketplace, and it's not surprising that people who view it as such aren't having sex. It's like trying to learn to play the piano using the theory of relativity.

Of course sex is a marketplace. There's a hierarchy with most attractive people at the top, least attractive people at the bottom. There's more agreement than disagreement about which people are "more attractive" and "less attractive"--but there is some disagreement. Maybe a woman I find very attractive, you don't find attractive at all (assuming you are attracted to women). Everyone is competing to find the most att…

> Everyone is competing to find the most attractive/compatible mate

Well, is it attractive or compatible? The two are not actually synonymous and it makes a significant difference. While attractiveness may be fairly universal (although not completely so), compatibility is very individual. This would severely restrict the size of any marketplace so as to make the dynamics very un-market-like.

I mean... perhaps I'm not the best person to ask. My wife and I were both the first person the other had dated, and I was very clear on our first date that I was not having sex with her that night, nor any other night, until we married. There were a few other guys who wanted to date my wife, but since my wife and I were dating, it's not like they could outbid me. That's kind of what it means to be in a committed relationship. After marriage, I've had women hit on me, and the answer is a universal back off, because -- you know -- sex isn't actually a marketplace. All the couples we interact with have similar stories (Although obviously, marrying the first person you date is not typical).

Re: Male Sexlessness Is Rising, but Not for the Reasons Incels Claim

#73

Post by sexlessnashamed »

bitL wrote: post #44
sexlessnashamed wrote: post #34

maybe this is a call for help and I get HN us probably the wrong place but I haven’t had a girlfriend in 15yrs and yes that means no sex in 15yrs. Im sure I have tons of issues. If im being defensive I’d say it’a juat bad luck. There’s been plently of women that have been interested in me and some I’ve been interested in but none where we were interested in each other. It doesn’t help that I’m a geek engineer so ther…

Ask yourself honestly: Do I really need sex/intimacy or is it just a bonus at best? Take a coin, label one side as never have sex, the other as have sex, flip it and observe your feelings once you see the result - did you feel relief or stress? Then you know "the direction of your heart". If you want to start meeting lots of women, buy a camera, spend a few months mastering the art of strobe photography to get at lea…

Thanks for trying to help. I'm not ugly or unfit and as I mentioned women are interested. Rather I have some other issue which is finding one I want that's also interested in me. I find plenty (well, 3-4 a year so maybe that's not plenty) that would be happy to date and are attractive. They just clearly (or at least in my head) are not a match. That includes at least one actual "model". I dress well as well.

The issue is not attracting them so much as something about my attitude and finding better matches. Example: I have a hairdresser who is clearly interested. We have zero in common though. Her entire life is drink with friends at a bar near her salon and otherwise watch Japanese TV. (both her own admission that that's all she does). And she's attractive. I'm not judging her choices, just saying that doesn't interest me so I don't pursue.

Conversely, met a girl who was a game dev. We hit it off immediately. Talked like fast friends. Thought it might go somewhere. She ditched when she found out I was 15yrs her senior (3rd-ish date). I wasn't shooting for young, just happy to find someone with semi common interests so that conversation was a exciting and joyous for both of us. That rarely happens. Not saying I need a game dev person. Just saying need someone who I can see as being a friend I can have a real conversation with. Who I like talking to because she's interested in more than just fashion (that's not an indictment of women in general, just that it's been a common experience for me). Have met a couple of girls I could talk well to but I wasn't physically attracted. Not looking for model just for whatever reason it attraction wasn't there for me.

Anyway, clearly I'm doing something wrong that I can't seem to meet someone that both seems like a match and we are mutually attracted. 15yrs is plenty of proof that it's me. Still I have no clue where to meet them. If I go to some conference where I think I'd meet some who have compatible interests they're are too few so they are probably taken or hit on constantly and therefore I'd feel like a jerk to be yet another guy trying.

Re: Male Sexlessness Is Rising, but Not for the Reasons Incels Claim

#74

Post by archagon »

tathougies wrote: post #50

I don't understand why parents would let their adult children live with them for years on end. My parents made it very clear that after the age of 18, my brother and I had to make it by ourselves. Like, they'd love it if we visited, but not living with them, and I can't understand why any one would want to live with their parents. Isn't 18 years of imprisonment bad enough?

Some people really like their parents, and their parents are lonely without them around?

Re: Male Sexlessness Is Rising, but Not for the Reasons Incels Claim

#75

Post by delcaran »

tathougies wrote: post #50

I don't understand why parents would let their adult children live with them for years on end. My parents made it very clear that after the age of 18, my brother and I had to make it by ourselves. Like, they'd love it if we visited, but not living with them, and I can't understand why any one would want to live with their parents. Isn't 18 years of imprisonment bad enough?

In Italy it's fairly common to live with parents until you find a partner. Housing prices are really high, income is low and having an housemate without romantic engagement is not a common practice, unless you're studying in another city.

IE, I'm almost 30 and I've been living alone for 2 years only because I found a decent medium-pay stable job 3.5 years ago, and the apartment I live in is rented by a friend who asks very little money. All of my friends who are single like me live with their parents, and only a few of those who are engaged live with their partners.

Re: Male Sexlessness Is Rising, but Not for the Reasons Incels Claim

#76

Post by dragonwriter »

tathougies wrote: post #50

I don't understand why parents would let their adult children live with them for years on end. My parents made it very clear that after the age of 18, my brother and I had to make it by ourselves. Like, they'd love it if we visited, but not living with them, and I can't understand why any one would want to live with their parents. Isn't 18 years of imprisonment bad enough?

> I don't understand why parents would let their adult children live with them for years on end.

Extended families living together had been very common across cultures and times; as has people living with parents, if not permanently, until marriage, however late that may or may not happen.

Unconditional ejection at the entrance to legal adulthood is, arguably the odd thing.

> Isn't 18 years of imprisonment bad enough?

Not every family situation feels equivalent to imprisonment for the child or enslavement for the parent.

Re: Male Sexlessness Is Rising, but Not for the Reasons Incels Claim

#77

Post by insickness »

tathougies wrote: post #72
insickness wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course sex is a marketplace. There's a hierarchy with most attractive people at the top, least attractive people at the bottom. There's more agreement than disagreement about which people are "more attractive" and "less attractive"--but there is some disagreement. Maybe a woman I find very attractive, you don't find attractive at all (assuming you are attracted to women). Everyone is competing to find the most att…

> Everyone is competing to find the most attractive/compatible mate Well, is it attractive or compatible? The two are not actually synonymous and it makes a significant difference. While attractiveness may be fairly universal (although not completely so), compatibility is very individual. This would severely restrict the size of any marketplace so as to make the dynamics very un-market-like. I mean... perhaps I'm not…

Attraction and compatibility are different and both have an effect on whether you want to be with a person. A super ugly person may have all the same interests as you or be compatible in other ways, and you still wouldn't want to date them. The attraction part is the part that is similar to a marketplace.

I think your relationship highlights what incels are talking about. In the past, more people got married like you did. Pre-internet, people's options were more limited. You chose from who ever was in your physical vicinity: at work, in your town, in your school, etc. Now with dating apps, you have an almost unlimited number of choices and you could choose the most physically attractive among thousands instead of the most attractive among the ten or twenty eligible people in your social circle, town, church or school. This makes sexual selection more like a marketplace. If you are an ugly person, you are less likely to marry up because the marketplace has become too efficient for it.

Re: Male Sexlessness Is Rising, but Not for the Reasons Incels Claim

#78

Post by insickness »

mercer wrote: post #69
dazilcher wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the person you f-ck up, effectively f-cking down? Or, more eloquently: without f-ck down, there is only f-ck sideways :)

I suppose it's possible for both sides to feel like or think that they're 'fucking up', or 'down', for that matter.

When it comes to social status, women tend to date up or sideways. When it comes to physical attractiveness, men tend to date up or sideways.

Re: Male Sexlessness Is Rising, but Not for the Reasons Incels Claim

#79

Post by quantumofmalice »

justboxing wrote: post #66
insickness wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course sex is a marketplace. There's a hierarchy with most attractive people at the top, least attractive people at the bottom. There's more agreement than disagreement about which people are "more attractive" and "less attractive"--but there is some disagreement. Maybe a woman I find very attractive, you don't find attractive at all (assuming you are attracted to women). Everyone is competing to find the most att…

> Everyone is competing to find the most attractive/compatible mate. They bypass the less attractive/compatible and go after (or accept dates with) more attractive people Correct. Or, as Louis C.K. eloquently put it. "You either F-ck up, or F-ck sideways. Nobody F-cks down." Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_BPt18sbyQ

Setting aside the logical impossibility of people f-king up but not f-king down, that is not true at all: men will f-ck down quite readily if it is convenient and there is low commitment. This is due to the obvious reason that males can have ten kids in a day by ten different women, whereas females can have perhaps 10 kids in a lifetime and each birth is incredibly high risk to her.

The core problem in the mating world is that the middle of the female attractiveness curve is having sterile sex with the top of the male attractiveness curve and then failing to pair bond with the middle of the male attractiveness curve. This is due to female hypergamy coupled with male promiscuity, arising from the dynamics of male and female reproductive constraints.

Re: Male Sexlessness Is Rising, but Not for the Reasons Incels Claim

#80

Post by mercer »

insickness wrote: post #78
mercer wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose it's possible for both sides to feel like or think that they're 'fucking up', or 'down', for that matter.

When it comes to social status, women tend to date up or sideways. When it comes to physical attractiveness, men tend to date up or sideways.

I don't disagree with that, but my point was more that 'dating up/down' is murky/subjective, so both sides could feel like they're dating up or down regardless of what other people might think. So even if two people were to be dating based on physical attractiveness, they could both think they got the better deal.
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