Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley • Hacker News Board

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#71

Post by arcticbull » Fri, May 04, 2018, 6:37 PM UTC

chipuni wrote: post #10

Compare and contrast: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-04-20/h-1b-work... ( Hacker News discussion at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16887739 )

Yeah, that article focuses on H-1B workers, which is a much different dynamic. H-1Bs are available for 2 calendar days in April, cost $6-10,000 all in, and you wind up with a 33% chance of starting your job in October -- and a 67% chance of being told to try again next year. Then if you move to another job you often lose your place in the very long green card line most of these people are in.

Canadians (via NAFTA) are in a much different visa situation. Access to the same jobs, but the TN-1 status costs $50USD, is adjudicated at the border with no caps or quotas, and is valid for 3 years, indefinitely renewable (so long as you promise not to renew it indefinitely).

It makes sense to me that people tired of the total lack of security and reason in the H-1 line head to Canada after a few years job experience in the bay to make them extra desirable. And Express Entry [1] means they can have permanent residency in 6 months or less. Whereas Canadians in the NAFTA line go south for the 3X pay. I'm really curious how many of us (I'm in that boat) end up coming home after lining their pockets.

[1] https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se...

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#72

Post by monkeynotes » Fri, May 04, 2018, 6:38 PM UTC

criddell wrote: post #31

I've often wondered why Canada doesn't have way more entrepreneurs. With a strong social safety net, you can work on your startup and not have to worry about losing your health insurance.

What are your perceptions of this safety net? Hospitals and doctor visits are taken care of, but you still need a fair chunk of capital to eat and keep warm every day, especially if you want to be close to tech hubs. Access to funding is more limited in Canada compared to the VC scene in SF too.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#73

Post by mywittyname » Fri, May 04, 2018, 6:39 PM UTC

52-6F-62 wrote: post #14

It's because of the pay and type of opportunities. You either take below market rate (like myself) or you work in something like one of the 300 ad-tech or we'll-build-your-website/app dev mills (more often than not it's both). There are a limited number of opportunities for truly interesting or innovative work if you don't want to work for "we're changing the world by creating the next uber/airbnb/cryptocurrency/coup…

> You either take below market rate (like myself) or you work in something like one of the 300 ad-tech or we'll-build-your-website/app dev mills (more often than not it's both).

This is probably feeding the problem. You need good engineers to create high-value products in order to afford to pay high salaries for good engineers. Economies can't get ahead when they waste engineering talent developing trivial software that doesn't build long-term growth.

Canada should probably have a massive advanced military project that aims to produce state of the art technology. Pay qualified people great salaries and let them use their inventions in the private sector after some period of time.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#74

Post by Archio » Fri, May 04, 2018, 6:39 PM UTC

I experienced this myself as a dual citizen that considered working in Canada. I received an offer in the US that was $60k higher than offers I received from Canadian startups.

Does anyone know what factors (cultural, political or other) contribute to Canadian companies paying so much less than the American ones? You'd think competitive businesses would notice this affect and adjust?

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#75

Post by octorian » Fri, May 04, 2018, 6:39 PM UTC

leonroy wrote: post #38

pmalynin wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in this situation, that is I'm graduating next year and I already have a job lined up in SV. Personally, there just isn't anything for me here. I hate winter (depression for 7 months, anyone?). Everything is far. Entertainment is sparse unless it involves 1) hockey or 2) drinking, or both. Pay is shit. Prices are shit. Selection is shit (have you tried using Amazon CA?). Food, at least where I am, is good but no…

Well.. grabbing the light rail in the Bay Area and changing at Santa Clara around 9pm was an eye opening experience. Let’s just say an old man snapping at my geeky reading would’ve been the least of my concerns. I had one guy pushing a cart trying to sell me drugs, a bunch of school kids leering at everyone and making a nuisance of themselves and just a general feeling that everyone with any sort of reasonable level…

Which train was this?

There are two major train systems going through the area. There's Caltrain, which will be full of professionals if you ride it close to working hours.

Then there's VTA Light Rail, which is effectively "the bus on rails." Later in the evening it will be full of the type you describe.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#76

Post by privacypoller » Fri, May 04, 2018, 6:40 PM UTC

huangc10 wrote: post #9

Canadian working in SV for almost a decade here. Yeah sure, it was about the technology, job, but a lot of it has to do with lifestyle (which the article fails to mention, and can't really be measured). Since I've been here, I've learned how to drive stick shift, sky dived, and been on way more adventure than what I could have if I stayed at home. It's about adventure and taking a risk. Not necessarily about the mone…

I think a big part of what the parent is talking about is how the community attracts like-minded people?

I moved to Calgary, AB in 2002 and a lot of people I'd meet grew up somewhere else and where economic migrants. It's a big deal to leave home, even for a good job, and lots cant/won't do it. It seems the further east you come from the stronger the pull of tradition/family/regionalism.

So, yes you can do any of the things mentioned pretty much anywhere, but the sentiment of more adventurous people => more willing to relocate for work seems to ring true.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#77

Post by arcticbull » Fri, May 04, 2018, 6:41 PM UTC

I guess the more interesting question (as one of the people mentioned in the article) is how many of us go back after a few years, and how many stay in the US?

I've seen a lot of my friends and coworkers returning home to their respective countries in the last couple of years -- especially under the Trump administration. Repatriating the experience gained from working at some of the most successful businesses worldwide could be a huge benefit to Canada.

The question for me is, is it happening?

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#78

Post by leonroy » Fri, May 04, 2018, 6:41 PM UTC

cfcf14 wrote: post #32

Canadian living in London for about 4 years now - of course people are leaving. The pay is incredibly low in major Canadian cities like Vancouver & Toronto; I was looking at 50-60k/yr there, ~150k in the US, or about 60-70k GPB in London. Now, London isn't exactly cheap, and my overall buying power here is probably only mildly superior to what it would be in Canada, but I get to live in a great city with all the amen…

London isn’t as we’ll paying for engineers as SV either unless they’re in finance or contracting - how’re you finding the pay gap here vs the US?

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#79

Post by andechs » Fri, May 04, 2018, 6:43 PM UTC

bradlys wrote: post #52

martinshen wrote: post #25

I recently moved back from the US (SF then Detroit) to Toronto to start a new startup. I was shocked when some entrepreneurs were upset that an Amazon HQ2 may raise the prices on engineering talent in Toronto. That may be true but is extremely short-sighted (and probably means those startups aren't VC-ambitious). The Toronto area really needs Amazon, Google or another large tech company to create a signifiant enginee…

That seems like an outlandishly high number. Where did you get that? You're saying that close to 25-33% of foreigners in the bay are Canadian.

The TN - (nonimmigrant NAFTA Professional) visa makes it very easy to move to the US as a Canadian vs a foreigner from any other country.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#80

Post by privacypoller » Fri, May 04, 2018, 6:43 PM UTC

iodiniemetra wrote: post #33

mi100hael wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I follow what you're getting at, but don't you think a large part of that is due to your own attitudes/perception? It's not like there aren't people in Canada who are doing exciting things like sky diving, let alone driving stick.

First of all, it's the weather. Half the year is rendered unusable for unplanned adventure. More than once here, on a rainy winter day, I've gotten in my car and driven east until I hit the hills, found a park, and enjoyed a sunny afternoon.

When I looked at relocating from Vancouver/Victoria a decade ago, my wife's #1 requirement was "it has to have 4 seasons". I love the mountains so that means some winter/snow. Winters out east are not a lot of fun and the lower mainland/PNW is just so depressing. Tech + Opportunities + Seasons = a pretty short list (especially in Canada)