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A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

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Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#71

Post by fnord77 »

jakeogh wrote: post #33
ISL wrote: post #12

Awesome. For those considering exploring some of these steps in their own garage -- the chemistry is dangerous, perhaps HF in particular, as it doesn't hurt, it just kills you a few hours later. Can you do this in a garage? Absolutely, but learn everything you need to know from an ensemble of safety-minded mentors before you strike out on your own. It's not just about safety for you, proper disposal of these chemical…

Nice HF technical overview: https://ehs.unc.edu/files/2015/09/hydrofluoricacid.pdf (tldr; nope; read it.) I needed to dissolve(ha!) fluorite once. You can get it started by adding a few drops of conc H2SO4 to your beautiful aqua regia solution. It goes deeper red, some happy bubbles appear, and as long as it stays put, makes it's own "aqua nasty"(pg88) as you gently add your powdered sample. I thought AQR+SA was call…

> Rectal administration has caused acute colitis with perforation.

disturbing that we know this

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#72

Post by Retric »

bleke wrote: post #47
sjclemmy wrote: post #36

When I read things like this I start to think about the following question: Given no technology at all (i.e. after an apocalypse!), how would one go about creating a computer (as we know them). What sort of knowledge would you need? The science of these things is basically multi decades of trial and error in various disciplines. Imagine a manual that explained how to create everything from scratch!

I'm interesting in this too and wondering why nobody did huge task and compiling everything into one book, starting from refining materials to making 8051/Z80 era pc

Just going from nothing aka sticks, mud, and ore to copper is probably a book on it's own.

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#74

Post by kens »

basementcat wrote: post #70

I predict a future Hacker News submission titled "I turned my garage into an EPA Superfund Site"

You should really read "The Radioactive Boy Scout", about a teenager who attempts to build a nuclear reactor. The EPA ends up dismantling his shed in moon suits.

https://harpers.org/archive/1998/11/the-radioactive-boy-scou...

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#75

Post by ajross »

chaostheory wrote: post #30
ISL wrote: post #12

Awesome. For those considering exploring some of these steps in their own garage -- the chemistry is dangerous, perhaps HF in particular, as it doesn't hurt, it just kills you a few hours later. Can you do this in a garage? Absolutely, but learn everything you need to know from an ensemble of safety-minded mentors before you strike out on your own. It's not just about safety for you, proper disposal of these chemical…

> It's not just about safety for you, proper disposal of these chemicals is essential for the many generations to come. Yes Gordon Moore created a superfund site or two in California.

Citation needed? The inorganic materials used in semiconductor fabrication, especially in the early days, tend to be fairly benign and are used only in small quantities relative to other industry.

The HF monster everyone is talking about in this thread is dangerous only as a concentrated acid. It's highly soluble -- reduce it with a rainstorm or two and let it recombine to a neutral pH and you rapidly get to (literally!) toothpaste-level toxicity.

There's a VERY serious discussion to be had about the safety for a backyard chip fabricator. But the idea that this is some kind of long term pollutant (relative to much more serious issues like the cleaning solutions in your very own closet!) is pretty spun.

Edit: yeah, as the responses point out, the "superfund" sites in question are things like VOC contamination you see with any urban industry, nothing particular to semiconductor fabrication that would justify the upthread quote about contamination "for many generations to come".

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#76

Post by kens »

phkahler wrote: post #54
ISL wrote: post #12

Awesome. For those considering exploring some of these steps in their own garage -- the chemistry is dangerous, perhaps HF in particular, as it doesn't hurt, it just kills you a few hours later. Can you do this in a garage? Absolutely, but learn everything you need to know from an ensemble of safety-minded mentors before you strike out on your own. It's not just about safety for you, proper disposal of these chemical…

>> For those considering exploring some of these steps in their own garage -- the chemistry is dangerous, perhaps HF in particular, as it doesn't hurt, it just kills you a few hours later. I was hoping that with 50 years of development behind us, the home fabricators could use less complex methods and less hazardous chemicals. In other words, can the folks who lived it help people like this by saying "If we had to do…

I use "Armour Etch" to remove oxide from chips for reverse engineering, so it might work instead of HF for home chip fabrication. It contains bifluroride salts so it's somewhat safer (although I'm still very careful with it). You can buy it in craft stores for etching glass.

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#77

Post by TomV1971 »

ajross wrote: post #75
chaostheory wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not just about safety for you, proper disposal of these chemicals is essential for the many generations to come. Yes Gordon Moore created a superfund site or two in California.

Citation needed? The inorganic materials used in semiconductor fabrication, especially in the early days, tend to be fairly benign and are used only in small quantities relative to other industry. The HF monster everyone is talking about in this thread is dangerous only as a concentrated acid. It's highly soluble -- reduce it with a rainstorm or two and let it recombine to a neutral pH and you rapidly get to (literal…

Here is one of them: https://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/cursites/csitinfo.cfm?id=0...

Intel graciously paid for trees to brighten up the street and has a nice street sign saying so. (It doesn’t say why they did.)

This one is not directly related to silicon production, but the QA that came after.

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#78

Post by mannykannot »

ajross wrote: post #75
chaostheory wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not just about safety for you, proper disposal of these chemicals is essential for the many generations to come. Yes Gordon Moore created a superfund site or two in California.

Citation needed? The inorganic materials used in semiconductor fabrication, especially in the early days, tend to be fairly benign and are used only in small quantities relative to other industry. The HF monster everyone is talking about in this thread is dangerous only as a concentrated acid. It's highly soluble -- reduce it with a rainstorm or two and let it recombine to a neutral pH and you rapidly get to (literal…

No citation is needed when a simple internet search reveals plenty of references, and that the issue is not HF specifically - volatile organics are an important issue.

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#79

Post by opencl »

ajross wrote: post #75
chaostheory wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not just about safety for you, proper disposal of these chemicals is essential for the many generations to come. Yes Gordon Moore created a superfund site or two in California.

Citation needed? The inorganic materials used in semiconductor fabrication, especially in the early days, tend to be fairly benign and are used only in small quantities relative to other industry. The HF monster everyone is talking about in this thread is dangerous only as a concentrated acid. It's highly soluble -- reduce it with a rainstorm or two and let it recombine to a neutral pH and you rapidly get to (literal…

Intel superfund site #1: https://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/cursites/csitinfo.cfm?id=0...

Intel superfund site #2: https://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/cursites/csitinfo.cfm?id=0...

Intel superfund site #3: https://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/cursites/csitinfo.cfm?id=0...

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#80

Post by chaostheory »

ajross wrote: post #75
chaostheory wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not just about safety for you, proper disposal of these chemicals is essential for the many generations to come. Yes Gordon Moore created a superfund site or two in California.

Citation needed? The inorganic materials used in semiconductor fabrication, especially in the early days, tend to be fairly benign and are used only in small quantities relative to other industry. The HF monster everyone is talking about in this thread is dangerous only as a concentrated acid. It's highly soluble -- reduce it with a rainstorm or two and let it recombine to a neutral pH and you rapidly get to (literal…

“We were putting into industrial production a lot of really nasty chemicals. There was just no knowledge of these things, and we were pouring stuff down into the city sewer system.” - Gordon Moore

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-06-15/american-... (cites the main source that is no longer on the web)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrtyUnad7Jo (audio from the interview)

Despite the quote, what a lot of people question is Gordon Moore's ignorance. He has a PhD in chemistry afterall.

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