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Bulldoze the business school

theguardian.com

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Re: Bulldoze the business school

#71

Post by bsder »

Meegul wrote: post #48
throwawayjava wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Surely you shouldn't need to struggle in the dark so much to learn. You have it all wrong, IMO. Successfully clawing their way out of the dark is by far the most important skill they're learning.

I recently had to write a scheduling algorithm for our home-grown operating system. I was running into some very difficult to debug issues, so I asked my TA for help. They had no clue and told me to consult the professor. The professor wouldn't help. Our textbook offered no guidance. We're not allowed to discuss projects whatsoever with other students. So after north of 5 hours spread over a few days of trying to fig…

Not being able to discuss your project with other students in an operating systems class is insane. You need to get input for the subtle bugs that are going to occur.

There is a reason why operating systems and compiler classes are notorious.

However, if 5 hours debugging is too much, I'd get out of the field now. Try debugging something for MONTHS while your bosses are all hanging over your shoulder.

In addition, 5 hours spread out is a problem. Subtle bugs require intense focus and you should be doing 5 hours per session. You have to inload and control a lot of details, most of which are irrelevant, in order to find the thing that really matters.

I really wish I could teach a "debugging class" where I hand groups real code with frustrating bugs. Unfortunately, no CS department would ever let me teach it as it would destroy enrollment.

Re: Bulldoze the business school

#72

Post by heedlessly3 »

mbesto wrote: post #6

Drucker, the person most attributed with founding modern management, himself stated that you cannot teach management: Prof Drucker expounds: "Teaching 23-year-olds in an MBA programme strikes me as largely a waste of time. They lack the background of experience. You can teach them skills - accounting and what have you - but you can't teach them management." His view is that management is neither an art nor a science…

The average entering MBA student is 28 years old the top universities.

23 year MBAs probably went to an no-name online degree program

Re: Bulldoze the business school

#73

Post by dragonwriter »

heedlessly3 wrote: post #72
mbesto wrote: post #6

Drucker, the person most attributed with founding modern management, himself stated that you cannot teach management: Prof Drucker expounds: "Teaching 23-year-olds in an MBA programme strikes me as largely a waste of time. They lack the background of experience. You can teach them skills - accounting and what have you - but you can't teach them management." His view is that management is neither an art nor a science…

The average entering MBA student is 28 years old the top universities. 23 year MBAs probably went to an no-name online degree program

> The average entering MBA student is 28 years old the top universities.

That sounds about right for the mean, with the median a few years younger, and then a smattering spread out of a larger range above the median than below.

> 23 year MBAs probably went to an no-name online degree program

No, they are probably younger tier, direct entry from undergrad students at conventional insitutions. No name online MBAs Target mid-career people, and are probably much older.

Re: Bulldoze the business school

#75

Post by pm90 »

duxup wrote: post #43
mbesto wrote: post #6

Drucker, the person most attributed with founding modern management, himself stated that you cannot teach management: Prof Drucker expounds: "Teaching 23-year-olds in an MBA programme strikes me as largely a waste of time. They lack the background of experience. You can teach them skills - accounting and what have you - but you can't teach them management." His view is that management is neither an art nor a science…

That line reminds me of the old FedEx MBA advert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcoDV0dhWPA I've certainly had plenty of run ins with young MBA n00bs who have just so little experience in the world that they're not just somewhat a negative, you can't even communicate with them. A company I worked at loved hiring them and putting MBA grads under some managers and giving them tasks. Most seemed to feel there were dec…

This is a common problem with folks who start in management roles right after college. It sounds incredibly trivial, but you have to kinda be on the other side ... "be managed", to better understand the difference b/w good management and bad.

I also had some very incorrect paradigms about the world which I was able to correct in the first couple of years of work (and which I continue to do today whenever I find them to be wrong). Not having the opportunity to do so is a great disservice to these folks... they may never realize some very simple things that most people find rather trivial but they seem to have great difficulty understanding.

e.g. that person who never responds to emails. If I were to guess, it sounds like he has a very inflated sense of self (not common right after college, especially from a top university). It is likely he thinks whatever he does is AWESOME and the boss will realize this and he doesn't need to communicate with the rest of the team.

Re: Bulldoze the business school

#76

Post by Hoasi »

woolvalley wrote: post #54
throwawayjava wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Surely you shouldn't need to struggle in the dark so much to learn. You have it all wrong, IMO. Successfully clawing their way out of the dark is by far the most important skill they're learning.

Then why the hell would you pay them for that when you can just do it yourself?

Reassurance is valuable in itself. That would be one valid reason. Building a network would be another.

Re: Bulldoze the business school

#77

Post by theyinwhy »

purplezooey wrote: post #67
factsaresacred wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This was in 2017 and I assume they had at least heard of the subprime crisis Brings to mind this from Peter Thiel (exclude the length): Q. You’ve written that you doubt the efficacy of MBA programs to prepare future business leaders. What would an effective MBA program look like? A. The question is, what substance of business are you focused on? The conceit of the MBA is that you don’t need to have any substance at…

And we should listen to Peter Thiel because....

... the downvotes say so.

I am wondering about the same. Peter Thiel does not seem to be someone the world should listen to. His politics are anti-human I would say. And yes, by being as influentual as he is I think we can and should talk about his politics here.

I am still trying to figure out how two such different world-views like thiel and musk were able to work together.

Re: Bulldoze the business school

#78

Post by dba7dba »

seanahrens wrote: post #21

My finance professor at the Haas School of Business at UC Berkeley preached that maximizing profit was our ultimate service to the world---so much so--that he taught that if we were running a company and had an option to maximize profits by producing a product that would seriously harm the health of people (eg. give them a medical condition), we should undoubtedly DO IT. Because we would have maximized profit for sha…

I was a student at the great institution called UC Berkeley and I remember well the teenagers walking around in suits/ties and skirts/blouse. These were undergrad Business school students and I remember well the air of superiority they showed. They seemed so proud.

Re: Bulldoze the business school

#79

Post by dba7dba »

kolbe wrote: post #19
amoorthy wrote: post #4

I'm a Stanford business school grad and harbour no fanatical love for it. I penned a public letter to my Dean [1] five years ago suggesting changes to a curriculum I saw as myopic. But this article strikes me as a diatribe against capitalism rather than business school alone. And the author's track record of railing against an industry he taught in for years sounds a bit like a publicity effort. Fwiw, my experience a…

> my classmate are incredible and many remain close friends That's a more significant aspect of business school than the classes themselves. In fact, I suspect the curriculum are designed more to maximize the creation of friendships (i.e. fairly easy and communal) than it is to actually fill people with knowledge.

An acquaintance of mine who graduated from USC MBA said basically you will do well if you can carry on good conversation over beer.

And another who went to Harvard Law said everyone at Harvard Law viewed folks at Harvard MBA as idiots.

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