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An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

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Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#71

Post by tptacek »

drewmol wrote: post #67
bvinc wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not trying to raise concerns. And actually, I agree with everything that you said. There is obviously a lot of misinformation and most of people's reactions and stories are factually incorrect and part of a fad. We can say that for sure because we've studied it. What I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't take that knowledge and then proceed to tell an individual, who you haven't studied, that they are wrong abo…

I agree with your sentimate. It's also important to remember that we continually learn new things about how previously considered inert components actually have effect when ingestested in combination with active ingredients. I love glutamate. When isolating them from other components and changing chemical structure, then dumping that in high volumes into other food (where the Chinese Food Syndrome part comes from), i…

If it "may" cause digestive irritation, how come it never does when scientists do blinded studies of it?

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#72

Post by tptacek »

kazinator wrote: post #70
1053r wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to expand on one of the parent's points, Celiac is pretty rare, and affects under 1% of the population. However, Fructose Malabsorption is much less rare, and affects closer to 5% in the US. In spite of the name, Fructose Malabsorption has little to do with dietary fructose, and instead has to do with a class of molecules called fructooligosaccharides (FOS). Overconsumption of FOS causes bloating, nausea, "brain…

> Perhaps added MSG is often found along side other ingredients/contaminants that cause headaches and other reported "MSG symptoms"? MSG is a clear common denominator. Many people report that if they avoid anything with MSG (under any of its names), they avoid the associated problems. That doesn't mean it's MSG. Why do studies focus on the MSG? Because they are sparked by the motivation to clear MSG's name (which cou…

Here we find ourselves hypothetically dismissing all the studies ever done on MSG based on broad classes of study design concerns.

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#73

Post by pharrington »

kazinator wrote: post #54
tptacek wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People say things like this about gluten sensitivity, too, often with very detailed self-reporting. But in a controlled setting, outside of celiac, there's not a lot of evidence for NCGS, and it's very likely that a significant fraction of people who report NCGS are not in fact gluten-sensitive. As with MSG, people also have weird ideas about their gluten intake, and as with MSG there's widespread and easily illustra…

> Something else in those foods you're sensitive to --- most likely salt! --- not MSG. Can you point to studies which confirm salt as the cause of these symptoms that MSG is unfairly blamed for? I can eat consume copious amounts of salt without any ill effects, like finishing huge bowls of soup to the last drop. I exercise a lot so I use salt liberally, and add it to water. If I don't supplement the salt intake, I st…

The symptoms you're describing are also primary symptoms of dehydration.

A more reliable exploration would be, after diligently logging your food and drink intake (with time and quantities) along with your physical feelings for a couple months, add a daily regime of a specific amount of pure MSG. Start small, and increase the MSG intake until you start feeling adverse symptoms. Assuming symptoms manifest, then increase your daily hydration levels (obviously not to the point of giving yourself hyperhydration) and note when/if the adverse symptoms previously noted diminish.

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#74

Post by nucleardog »

gilrain wrote: post #45
bvinc wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think the probability that someone on the planet has a sensitivity to a certain food/molecule is about the same as there being a teapot orbiting Mars? Everything a person consumes has a vast variety of effects in different people. We're discovering new reactions all the time. I'll tell you why I care. I'm coming from the perspective of someone that DOES have a rare and strange immune system reaction to a common f…

My partner has IBS, so I'm also frustrated with unidentified food reactions/digestive issues. But I can't help her by ignoring the best tool for discerning reality we have, which remains scientific research. The results on MSG, glutamates, is very, very clear. "You think the probability that someone on the planet has a sensitivity to a certain food/molecule is about the same as there being a teapot orbiting Mars?" No…

I have as much evidence for the teapot as the MSG sensitivity, so I couldn't really guess which is more likely. I'd be happy to change my mind on either if presented with plausible research!

I mean, you also have a whole ton of negative results regarding the plausibility of MSG sensitivity.

Do you have any results showing that someone has looked into the possibility of a teapot floating around Mars and not found one?

There's no clear mechanism for either to be true, but so far I think my money's on teapot.

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#75

Post by sushid »

wollstonecraft wrote: post #69
thedz wrote: post #5

I've talked to many otherwise perfectly rational folks who get worked up about avoiding MSG when it comes to Asian food — but still go out and buy liquid aminos or eat foods that are caked in it.

I've done a double blind experiment with myself, and msg reliably triggers migraines.

But is that also the case when you consume food with lots of naturally occurring MSG? (e.g. chicken stock)

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#76

Post by drewmol »

tptacek wrote: post #71
drewmol wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your sentimate. It's also important to remember that we continually learn new things about how previously considered inert components actually have effect when ingestested in combination with active ingredients. I love glutamate. When isolating them from other components and changing chemical structure, then dumping that in high volumes into other food (where the Chinese Food Syndrome part comes from), i…

If it "may" cause digestive irritation, how come it never does when scientists do blinded studies of it?

The articles mentioned studies, but I can't give informed speculation, have not looked at any of the studies. Will assume the participants who reported irritation are a small enough a population to fall within the range of participants reporting irritation from placebo. So I'll opine that most of the people who report negative reaction probably have not sufficiently isolated MSG as the culprit, even if they are certain enough to convict.

Side note: Latacora intreagues me, I think it's a good aproach to satisfy some security pain points. If things go well in the next few months, I may reach out to evaluate fit;-)

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#78

Post by tptacek »

wollstonecraft wrote: post #69
thedz wrote: post #5

I've talked to many otherwise perfectly rational folks who get worked up about avoiding MSG when it comes to Asian food — but still go out and buy liquid aminos or eat foods that are caked in it.

I've done a double blind experiment with myself, and msg reliably triggers migraines.

Scientists have been doing challenge studies with MSG for 4 decades, and no study that presented subjects with MSGs and detected any adverse reactions significantly different than placebo has ever reproduced.

Even the (rebutted, non-reproducing) studies that showed adverse reactions to MSG (in the 80s and early 90s) showed headache as one of the symptoms not associated with MSG (tingling and numbness were more closely associated).

I don't doubt you're able to give yourself a migraine, but I do doubt that you're controlling for MSG.

This might be one of the best-studied food safety questions in the literature.

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#79

Post by 205guy »

bvinc wrote: post #16
thedz wrote: post #5

I've talked to many otherwise perfectly rational folks who get worked up about avoiding MSG when it comes to Asian food — but still go out and buy liquid aminos or eat foods that are caked in it.

I just checked the ingredients on my liquid aminos and it doesn't say msg. Their website says they don't add it, but there may be "very small amounts" that naturally occur from the soybeans. Please explain. P.S. I have no reaction to MSG I just don't understand why you would think someone is being irrational.

I agree with bvinc in this debate: those claiming to be scientific and saying MSG can't cause any reaction are rudely dismissing the real experiences of strangers. There are many reasons for the perceived MSG reactions: other additives in the MSG (like melamine milk in China), other foods at Chinese restaurants (and possible additives in those), all the way to psychosomatic and culture-bound syndromes [1].

There are a lot of "sensitivity" syndromes, and some are associated with genetic issues, some with toxicity, and others with mental health. And then there are questionable diseases [2]. Yes, the sufferers are sometimes vocal and unscientific. Those claiming to follow science shouldn't be.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture-bound_syndrome [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_questionable_diseases

Re: An MSG Convert Visits the High Church of Umami

#80

Post by tptacek »

akaryocyte wrote: post #17

The article rather understates the use of glutamate in the body. > it is an essential building block of protein found in muscle tissue, the brain, and other organs. It's not only found in every organ, it's present in 99.6% of all human proteins, out of 20328 only 72 do not use glutamate, and of those 29 are keratin proteins.

Supposedly, the glutamate you absorb in your intestine from food is an important precursor for glutathione, which protects your mucosa from dietary toxins. It's possible that you need to consume some level of it for healthy digestion.
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