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In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

theguardian.com

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Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#71

Post by oldcynic »

It's quite appalling how UK universities seem to have changed since tuition fees. Most saddening is the effective destruction of the Open University as they now charge the same fees as everyone else. Few can afford to take an OU course for interest, or mid life career change any more.

The youngest is looking very unlikely to attend university at all thanks to feedback from those already in the system. I rather get the impression that paying £9k per year has turned academic excellence into a simple commercial production line.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#72

Post by pbhjpbhj »

Shivetya wrote: post #59
noodlesUK wrote: post #47

As a university student in the UK I find myself reminded of these problems on a very frequent basis. The purpose of universities seems to have shifted from providing academic research and learning to simply being another stage of school, with the sole objective of handing out degrees. One of the metrics that I feel indicates this most strongly is the radical change in hiring at universities in recent years. It's shoc…

I am a bit confused by the last statement. It can take a lot of man power to support the academics at any university. Now this is not to say that there isn't a lot of staff padding going on. From supporting the physical site of the university which can be across multiple campuses to managing the life and well being of the students. Then top it off with administrative people and their support staffs the numbers can ad…

Not parent but, your statement doesn't explain why the ratio of academics to administrators should have fallen, do academics now need more administrators than they did. Are the newly employed non-academics really serving the research aims, or are they meeting the schooling requirements?

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#73

Post by pjc50 »

oldcynic wrote: post #71

It's quite appalling how UK universities seem to have changed since tuition fees. Most saddening is the effective destruction of the Open University as they now charge the same fees as everyone else. Few can afford to take an OU course for interest, or mid life career change any more. The youngest is looking very unlikely to attend university at all thanks to feedback from those already in the system. I rather get th…

The OU was actually one of the great British success stories, a "MOOC" before the Internet. It's a tragedy if that's coming to an end.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#74

Post by pjc50 »

eptcyka wrote: post #62
pjc50 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically UK university education is something of an export industry: there are a lot of people from non-Western countries who come here and pay full fees for the degrees because of their prestige. The government's gradual tightening of immigration policy is making this less viable.

Actually, the high paying customers won't be put off by whatever immigration policy the current government will put in place. It's mostly EU students who will look elsewhere.

It's not a question of being "put off" if you're denied entry or deported (wrongly or otherwise) by the Home Office.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#75

Post by pbhjpbhj »

thinkingemote wrote: post #66
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help feeling we would be better off if responsibility for grading was taken away from universities as it is for A levels and GCSEs. There are some problems with that but I suspect they would be outweighed by the benefits.

I've anecdotes from two university lecturers on different courses. They both want some form of external moderation. its what happens for Postgraduate degrees after all. What they report is horrifying: * Essay writing skills are lacking, "its at GCSE level" * Students contesting any form of criticism - they go via the official channels to argue why they should get a good grade. All schools are tied up in multiple trib…

>People literally copying from Wikipedia or copy and pasting from papers to make their own work. //

My lad is just in UK high-school but I'm surprised at how homework is set with no provision of resources and no mention of plagiarism or need to cite sources. The kids are basically expected to find their own sources, which is ridiculous - making them trust whatever Google gives them.

Once they've been inculcated into the notion that education resides in googling and cutting and pasting, without even reading the content, then it's hard to establish a good research ethic.

On top of this the teachers aren't even teaching good use of online search, or providing access to primary source material that gets referenced.

It's really dire.

Textbooks have their problems but ...

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#76

Post by CantSQLIThis »

gaius wrote: post #61
noodlesUK wrote: post #47

As a university student in the UK I find myself reminded of these problems on a very frequent basis. The purpose of universities seems to have shifted from providing academic research and learning to simply being another stage of school, with the sole objective of handing out degrees. One of the metrics that I feel indicates this most strongly is the radical change in hiring at universities in recent years. It's shoc…

The purpose of universities seems to have shifted from providing academic research and learning to simply being another stage of school There’s no “seems” about it, 50% of school leavers going to university was an explicit policy goal. There’s no way to reconcile an institution of higher learning with one that has to accept anyone that applies

In what sense do they have to accept anyone that applies?

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#77

Post by sergiosgc »

gaius wrote: post #61
noodlesUK wrote: post #47

As a university student in the UK I find myself reminded of these problems on a very frequent basis. The purpose of universities seems to have shifted from providing academic research and learning to simply being another stage of school, with the sole objective of handing out degrees. One of the metrics that I feel indicates this most strongly is the radical change in hiring at universities in recent years. It's shoc…

The purpose of universities seems to have shifted from providing academic research and learning to simply being another stage of school There’s no “seems” about it, 50% of school leavers going to university was an explicit policy goal. There’s no way to reconcile an institution of higher learning with one that has to accept anyone that applies

That makes no sense. It seems to me it is an elitist view that when you provide a service to the unwashed masses, it must be of lower quality. I believe it is false. Curricula don't have to be easier if you have a large student body, and graduation requirements don't have to be lower. Taking in more students does not inhibit service quality, up to the capacity of the school, which can be easily scaled by hiring more teachers and more teaching space.

Anyhow, the volume of students as a change driver for university quality explanation does not fit with the observations that:

a) Universities employ disproportionately more non-teaching staff than they used to; and

b) Academic staff has a harder time reaching tenure.

The explanation lies elsewhere.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#78

Post by titanix2 »

funkythings wrote: post #18

It's very disingenuous of the author not to mention free speech issues, the massive administrations that are run by radical left-leaning activists essentially, and pseudoscience like gender studies or gender studies. I agree otherwise

While I agree that some disciplines trying to looks like science got too much funding and that these funds are used for propagating ideology instead of doing proper research[1], saying that administration is run by activists is a pure conspiracy theory. Moreover, freedom of speech became an issue in most universities because of the more global politically correct context, so it is not something the can be addressed only at the academic level.

[1] I'm reading an interesting book written by two French sociologists which advocate for a clean-up of their field precisely because this issue is costing them of a lot of the credibility. "Le danger sociologique" (2017), Bronner G., Géhin É. Presse Universitaire de France.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#79

Post by astrodev »

Angostura wrote: post #7

There's also the issue of what has happened now that students have to pay through the nose for courses. They are now customers who expect high grades for their fees. This has certainly changed the dynamic with regard to rigorous marking in some areas

PhD selection committees don't give much weight to grades (did they ever?) and instead rely on letters of recommendation. The corporate world doesn't care what one has gained from their degree apart from the social skills which universities don't grade for anyway. So who needs the grades to be rigorous?

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#80

Post by pbhjpbhj »

golergka wrote: post #53
sgt101 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tough to do this within the constraints of academic freedom; if an institution wants to offer a new course and they need to get certification by an authority and find externals to mark it... well could stall things by years?

Offer a course without a certification. Then, those students who are only in uni for the grades will not take it, but students who actually value knowledge will opt in for the course.

Which then will be penalised by mainstream employers, because there's no certification - automated CV scanners will dump your application as it's "not a proper degree".
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