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Tracking the Illegal Shipment of Sarin Precursor from Belgium to Syria

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Re: Tracking the Illegal Shipment of Sarin Precursor from Belgium to Syria

#71

Post by freeflight »

blackbagboys wrote: post #38
deleteme12345 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The White Helmets" -- there's your problem. > There is a reason Assad’s government blocked inspectors from examining the latest claimed attack. That did not happen.

>> That did not happen. Counterpoint: It did happen. Only the country currently propping up the regime's genocidaires with all-out military support is claiming it was unspecified 'militants' who blocked the inspectors.

> Only the country currently propping up the regime's genocidaires with all-out military support is claiming it was unspecified 'militants' who blocked the inspectors.

Actually, it's UN personnel that blocked the inspection from happening because it was them who came under attack and thus declared the situation too dangerous for the inspection team [0]. Neither Syria nor Russia had anything to do with preventing that inspection from happening.

[0] https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/EC/M-59/en/ecm59dg02_e_....

Re: Tracking the Illegal Shipment of Sarin Precursor from Belgium to Syria

#72

Post by freeflight »

wybiral wrote: post #39
acct1771 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let the comments speak for themselves. Don't hide them behind a barrier. Freedom of expression is more important than protecting people from reading mean ideas about their favorite politician etc.

You have the freedom to go on Twitter and write mean things about someone's favorite politician. And news sites have the freedom to remove unwanted noise and divisive trolling from their articles.

> And news sites have the freedom to remove unwanted noise and divisive trolling from their articles.

Sure they have, but if you actually consider media the "fourth branch of government" then wouldn't it be more desirable to let people have public discourse and debate, after all, that's supposed to be its role?

Print media at least has reader's letters, what's the modern equivalent of digital media? Comments! They allow even more people to participate in the discourse. Disable the comments and what's left? Pretty much nothing but articles quoting random noise from Twitter, which isn't something everybody can or wants to participate in.

Re: Tracking the Illegal Shipment of Sarin Precursor from Belgium to Syria

#73

Post by scottie_m »

wbl wrote: post #64
scottie_m wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s one thing you can use, especially if you’re a fan of Dexter , but back in the real world we already control the actual precursor Methylphosphonyl difluoride. If you take sodium cyanide and drop it into H2SO4 and water, you get poison gas. If you want to stop that, control the production and export of cyanide, not the water or sulphuric acid! Isopropyl alcohol is not a chemical weapon precursor, just like water i…

Here is the CWC Schedule II: https://www.opcw.org/chemical-weapons-convention/annexes/ann... . Notice an alcohol appears on the list, while organophosphates appear on Schedule I. Both are controlled.

“An alcohol”

Is doing a lot of work in that sentence. Ethanol is an alcohol, enjoy a lovely drink. Methanol is an alcohol, try not to to drink it. Alcohol is an incredibly broad family and the scheduled substance (Pinacolyl alcohol: 3,3-Dimethylbutan-2-ol) is not isopropyl alcohol. It’s not even close. It’s also not a precursor to sarin, but soman.

Notice that isopropanol isn’t scheduled at all, so I feel justified in asking if you were just confused or trying to be sneaky?

Oh and by the way, most alcohol hand sanitizers are 70% isopropyl alcohol, not ethanol.

Re: Tracking the Illegal Shipment of Sarin Precursor from Belgium to Syria

#74

Post by wbl »

scottie_m wrote: post #73
wbl wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is the CWC Schedule II: https://www.opcw.org/chemical-weapons-convention/annexes/ann... . Notice an alcohol appears on the list, while organophosphates appear on Schedule I. Both are controlled.

“An alcohol” Is doing a lot of work in that sentence. Ethanol is an alcohol, enjoy a lovely drink. Methanol is an alcohol, try not to to drink it. Alcohol is an incredibly broad family and the scheduled substance (Pinacolyl alcohol: 3,3-Dimethylbutan-2-ol) is not isopropyl alcohol. It’s not even close. It’s also not a precursor to sarin, but soman. Notice that isopropanol isn’t scheduled at all, so I feel justified i…

I was confused. Apparently Belgium saw fit to restrict the export.

Re: Tracking the Illegal Shipment of Sarin Precursor from Belgium to Syria

#75

Post by pcrh »

jmblpati wrote: post #65
pcrh wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just for your information, the mechanism of organophosphate nerve agent toxicity does not involve serine hydrolyases. It involves acetylcholinesterase. https://chemm.nlm.nih.gov/nerveagents.htm

...which is a serine hydrolase.

I stand corrected... I was thinking of serine hydrolyases more generally, most of which are not significantly affected by organophosphate neurotoxins.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serine_hydrolase

Re: Tracking the Illegal Shipment of Sarin Precursor from Belgium to Syria

#76

Post by jmblpati »

pcrh wrote: post #75
jmblpati wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...which is a serine hydrolase.

I stand corrected... I was thinking of serine hydrolyases more generally, most of which are not significantly affected by organophosphate neurotoxins. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serine_hydrolase

No, pretty much all serine hydrolases are affected by organophosphates (assuming they can reach the active site). For example, the compounds IDFP[0] and MAFP[1] can both be used to inhibit serine hydrolase activity in vitro. Diisopropyl fluorophosphate can also be used, although that one actually is pretty much a nerve agent (it's volatile).

The only reason the wholesale disruption of hydrolases is not the thing that kills you with nerve agents is that acetylcholinesterase is particularly susceptible to organophosphates (wide open active site) and essential to nerve signal conduction. Thus although sarin (for example) will wreck most hydrolases in your body, this won't really matter when you'll be dead in a few minutes from your nervous system being unable to tell your lungs to breathe.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDFP

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methoxy_arachidonyl_fluorophos...

Re: Tracking the Illegal Shipment of Sarin Precursor from Belgium to Syria

#77

Post by gandhium »

ttctciyf wrote: post #66
k1m wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Happen to have any links on Seymour Hersh being "made to look foolish" with his article? Robert Fisk, also a highly respected journalist, was the first Western journalist to visit Douma after the recent bombing. His report casts doubt on the claims about what happened in Syria that led to the UK, US, and France to bomb without waiting for evidence. See https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syria-chemical-attack-g...

There's some footage[1] from One America News Network, which I gather is some kind of sub-Fox News outfit, of their reporter interviewing doctors at the same hospital Fisk writes about. They seem to tell pretty much the same story: on the day of the purported attack people were treated for dust inhalation, no-one died, a bunch of people suddenly appeared in the hospital shouting "chemical attack!" and spraying people…

From your second link:

> Medics and survivors who have remained in Douma, and others who have fled for northern Syria, ridiculed competing claims that the attack either did not take place, or did not use gas.

Re: Tracking the Illegal Shipment of Sarin Precursor from Belgium to Syria

#78

Post by pcrh »

jmblpati wrote: post #76
pcrh wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I stand corrected... I was thinking of serine hydrolyases more generally, most of which are not significantly affected by organophosphate neurotoxins. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serine_hydrolase

No, pretty much all serine hydrolases are affected by organophosphates (assuming they can reach the active site). For example, the compounds IDFP[0] and MAFP[1] can both be used to inhibit serine hydrolase activity in vitro. Diisopropyl fluorophosphate can also be used, although that one actually is pretty much a nerve agent (it's volatile). The only reason the wholesale disruption of hydrolases is not the thing that…

"The dose makes the poison". It would be too broad to claim that all serine hydrolyases are susceptible to all organophosphate compounds.

For example many pesticides are organophosphates, yet have little effect on humans.

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