Startup Idea - An AI language translator for legal language to English. It could convert a 20+ page contract to a 1 page bullet list. Maybe this has already been done or does the language of law require quantum computing?
The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming
71–80 of 255 posts
Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming
#72True of legalese in contracts, but also Law in general has multiplied like Gremlins. Hammurabi's code of laws, was written in common language, and was brief enough every subject could understand them. It makes no sense that we should be subject to a volume of law that we could never even read, let alone understand. Musk is correct in insisting that laws should expire, and it should be easier to remove a law than add…
Do you think allowing programs to be specified in plain English is a good idea?
We have "legalese" for the same reason we have programming languages. Terms have specific, sometimes slightly different or more narrow meanings to promote better understanding of intent in languages meant to specify a set of rules.
Specifying laws in "plain English" makes about as much sense to me as programming in English. You'll quickly find that for all but the most trivial of things the ambiguity of the language works against you.
Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming
#73True of legalese in contracts, but also Law in general has multiplied like Gremlins. Hammurabi's code of laws, was written in common language, and was brief enough every subject could understand them. It makes no sense that we should be subject to a volume of law that we could never even read, let alone understand. Musk is correct in insisting that laws should expire, and it should be easier to remove a law than add…
> Musk is correct in insisting that laws should expire
This is a terrible idea. Stability and gradual, generally understandable, evolution in response to real world conditions are positive attributes of the current precedent-based system that has grown out of the common law.
Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming
#74True of legalese in contracts, but also Law in general has multiplied like Gremlins. Hammurabi's code of laws, was written in common language, and was brief enough every subject could understand them. It makes no sense that we should be subject to a volume of law that we could never even read, let alone understand. Musk is correct in insisting that laws should expire, and it should be easier to remove a law than add…
> Hammurabi's code of laws, was written in common language, and was brief enough every subject could understand them. While laws being written in common language sounds like a good idea, common language is open to lots of ambiguity and loopholes. Shouldn't our laws, in general, be written to be as precise and narrowly defined as possible?
The society became much more complex since the Hammurabi's code. You argument is similar to people's who say that programs are over-engineered, and should be much simpler. There's some over-engineering but the main cause is that the world becomes more and more complex.
Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
I totally agree. The terms and conditions, or some offering of them, should be available in the same way that quick start or full guides are - in a form that adds to the usability of the service. E.g. "when you upload a photo, ____ owns the photo, for _____ period, and may do a, b, c, and d with it"
The problem is that legal terminology doesn't always match conventional descriptions of what's happening. Copyright is actually a perfect example of this. In order to send my photo over the Internet to other people who want to view it, you need much more than the legal right to display my picture. Sending a picture over the Internet involves copying, distributing, and sublicensing the image countless numbers of times…
I'm sorry, I don't follow why the plain English version is severely misleading, or couldn't be supplemented to capture the full extent of Imgur legalese. Why do you think this is the case?
Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming
#76True of legalese in contracts, but also Law in general has multiplied like Gremlins. Hammurabi's code of laws, was written in common language, and was brief enough every subject could understand them. It makes no sense that we should be subject to a volume of law that we could never even read, let alone understand. Musk is correct in insisting that laws should expire, and it should be easier to remove a law than add…
> It makes no sense that we should be subject to a volume of law that we could never even read, let alone understand Why does that not make sense? The law must cover everything from "dont kill certain species" to "don't commit this very specific type of fraud". Society is so advanced we need more laws. Of course Hamurabi's code was short because it didn't need to stop investment bankers committing fraud or voting law…
The garbage part is not that there is a large volume of law, but that the law is made even larger implicitly through a system of historical precedent without being explicitly updated to reflect those changes.
As an easy example, the commerce clause in the US constitution has come to mean something that no layman would ascribe to it.
Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
250 hours: that is the number of hours required to actually read all the adhesion contracts the typical American is exposed to in a year. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/mar/03/terms-of-... 250 hours is a full man-month of time. Do you have a free month in your calendar to read contracts and do very little else? Nobody I know has that sort of free time. So calling people or their behaviors "failures" for…
Access to Facebook, Spotify, or Netflix is not a human right. These are private services offered by private companies who are free to offer those services on any terms they choose. It’s fine and completely understandable that you may not have time or cannot understand the agreements under which they may choose to offer you access. Your remedy for that is to not use the services in question. Your remedy isn’t to lie t…
Bold words. Question: Off the top of your head, for what period of time may you make a claim or cause of action arising out of or related to use of Hacker News or its terms of use?
I'm just curious whether you've read and understood the terms of use for the site you're making these bold claims on.
Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming
#78True of legalese in contracts, but also Law in general has multiplied like Gremlins. Hammurabi's code of laws, was written in common language, and was brief enough every subject could understand them. It makes no sense that we should be subject to a volume of law that we could never even read, let alone understand. Musk is correct in insisting that laws should expire, and it should be easier to remove a law than add…
> It makes no sense that we should be subject to a volume of law that we could never even read, let alone understand Why does that not make sense? The law must cover everything from "dont kill certain species" to "don't commit this very specific type of fraud". Society is so advanced we need more laws. Of course Hamurabi's code was short because it didn't need to stop investment bankers committing fraud or voting law…
> Certainly there are improvements but you will never fit it all into one short book that a layperson could read.
However, the law could still certainly be shortened and simplified. The GDPR is written in plain English.
Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming
#79IMO, this is a question of consumer protection. It's ok to provide complicated contracts to corporations who can afford to hire lawyers, but it's not ok to do so with consumers. If we make a requirement that for consumer products, contract should be now longer than 1 page written in a language understandable by 10 year old, it will solve problem.
I like the elevator pitch approach.
If you can't explain your T&S in as many words as it takes to explain your product, one or the other needs to be revised.
Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
You should never write a contract yourself unless you are a lawyer. There's a case law which usually involved, and if aren't careful, you might have big problems.
But it seems like getting a lawyer involved is exactly what leads to these complicated Terms of Service. I would have to find a lawyer who agreed to significantly dumb down the Terms of Service, which I would suspect they would be opposed to -- I mean they are writing these things like this for a reason, right?
They write the thing the way they are written because likely there was a case where simpler language lead to the company losing in court. There's also a principle Contra Proferentem, that intreprets all ambiguities in favor of the non drafting party, so the drafting party should be extra careful and write all this pesky legalese.