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Why is Ember fading away?

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Re: Why is Ember fading away?

#71

Post by 3pt14159 »

berkes wrote: post #70
3pt14159 wrote: post #41

I'll take a counter view here. Ember shines best when building very UI rich, complex front end apps. Not apps that need to work on shitty connections or devices. Apps you would use from your office in NY or Toronto. But the sad fact is that there just aren't that many frontend apps out there, relatively speaking. Ember is hard to learn because you need to learn a lot to get things done, and most people building somet…

> Not apps that need to work on shitty connections or devices. Curious, why would you say that? I've only ever dabbled with Ember a little, never built anything production-ready with it. But I did have to maintain an Angular (1) app. And that thing was chatty as hell. I was the backend dev, and developed the REST api that our apps and this Angular bowl-of-spagetti communicated with. Where ember has, built in, localst…

It's more the type of app that you build with Ember. It ends up just being so much more complex and that requires multiple requests. You can't locally store everything, and you often can't do everything on the first request, so if you're on a connection where packet loss is an issue instead of 3 or 4 round trips you end up having 16 or 20. With a shitty device the commutative lag between janky animations (which ember makes easy with libraries like Ember-Concurrency) it just destroys the experience.

Whereas the other frameworks don't make things as app-y as easily so its more like a local template language than an app builder. So people don't go as hog wild.

That plus a larger initial JS file than something slimmed down like React. It kinda adds up even if in theory it shouldn't.

Re: Why is Ember fading away?

#72

Post by tashoecraft »

parthdesai wrote: post #66
handbanana wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume tashoecraft was referring to the latest version of Angular - which I believe is 5. And 6 is right around the corner. I would make an educated guess that the most recent Angular is not user perceptibly slower than React for most applications. Everything is a trade off, so if you value structure and convention over raw speed then Angular would make sense over React. Also, I imagine the latest versions of angul…

Hmm, tbh i haven't kept up with Angular so i wouldn't know for sure. There was Addy Osmani's talk on performances of different JS frameworks and Angular was the slowest. Slower than what chrome team recommends :)

I don’t believe Angular is any bit slower then react currently. Any comparisions I’ve seen usually have some level of bias where the author either chose not to use some feature that would change the comparision to be more equal.

I’ll say that Angular recieved alot of flack over the 1-2 change ( alot rightly so ) but it’s really solid now and marching at a steady pace of improvments. I’ve looked over react and vue.js projects recently and they are all basically the same thing with slighy differences.

Re: Why is Ember fading away?

#73

Post by hardwaresofton »

megaman22 wrote: post #65
hardwaresofton wrote: post #51

In my mind, if you need a large framework that a whole team can use day in and day out, Ember is the go-to choice. It's got a lot of batteries included and the learning curve is pretty steep, but it has patterns and a way to do things for just about everything. It's also been rapidly absorbing the best parts of other frameworks and approaches -- fastboot, glimmer, etc. - Angular had the spot, then bumbled the transit…

> One of the biggest problems with ember of course, is the breakneck pace of change. I think it's slowed down somewhat recently, but keeping up with it can feel like a full time job sometimes, if you get stuck behind for too long, it gets harder and harder to update your codebase. If there's somewhere in the front-end world where this is not the case, short of going back to jQuery spaghetti, I'd love to find it. We'r…

I actually made that statement with the pace of the front-end world taken into account -- ember actually churns additionally :( . Part of Ember's openness to doing things better often involves deprecating/removing parts of their API that they're convinced was wrong before -- it's not a bad thing, but it means that if you get stuck on some version, and the next version has gone a different way on some concept/part of the framework, you're going to have a bad time, even if the landscape hasn't moved much yet.

I spend a lot in frontend land and I've grown somewhat accustomed to it's insanity. I actually even like it at this point -- Let everyone go insane in all the different directions, watch how they fare, then let the good stuff rise to the top, and pull out the interesting paradigm shifts if there are any. Platforms like C# often have a lot more enterprise weight behind them and "stable" takes on a completely different meaning.

I might even say that churn in .NET is happening too, it's just way way more localized. For example the .NET core/standard move is happening right now, but I can only assume that the vast majority of codebases on .NET 4.x don't care at all, and are letting it work itself out maybe over the next year before they even consider moving (if they ever move at all). As a person who's struggled with porting a .NET 4.x package to .NET core/standard, and with some associated libraries (EF, mostly), it was not a pleasant experience, but by the time it gets to everyone else, it probably will be.

Re: Why is Ember fading away?

#74

Post by nojvek »

StevePerkins wrote: post #54
abledon wrote: post #32

I'm just going to say it: Their mascot was an annoying hamster. This was their downfall. Angular, sexy geometric design. React, sexy nuclear design. Vue, Sexy V geometric design. Ember, a big goofy rodent looking at you lol. "But abledon, what about GOlang? they have a rodent too?" Yes but golang resides in backend land where designers and frontend visual brains are lacking, only performance matters, doesnt matter if…

I think it's more about corporate sponsorship and branding. Angular is seen as "The Google Solution" (disregarding that Google doesn't actually use it as much as people think). React is seen as "The Facebook Solution". Ember is more decentralized, and lacking a strong primary champion/sponsor. Something that developers SAY we like in open source projects, but which frankly doesn't really match our actions so much. I…

Sure that has some value, but Angular and React brought in new ideas for their time.

I think the react 'view as a function of state' makes a ton of things easier to reason about, and will probably last for a while.

Re: Why is Ember fading away?

#75

Post by gavinjoyce »

We've been using Ember at Intercom for over 4 years to build our main app.

We continue to be super productive with Ember, our customers love our product, our code base has never been healthier and Ember's careful upgrade path and approach to deprecations means that we don't spend much energy or time thinking about non-product related technical challenges.

We've grown from 10 to 150 engineers in that time and Ember's strong conventions has helped us continue our tradition of enabling new engineers shipping to production on their first day and shipping a feature to production in their first week.

Ember is not fading away for us, it's enabling us to focus on continuously shipping better and better features to our customers.

Re: Why is Ember fading away?

#76

Post by dustingetz »

atonse wrote: post #35
dustingetz wrote: post #19

Ember felt very Rails-y to me. The ember community felt entrenched in rails, and rails is reaching end-of-life. It is old-school thought. Ember made existing ideas better, a 2x gain maybe. I want new ideas, the 100x leap.

And have you found that yet?

I have! Karl and I made this: http://www.hyperfiddle.net/ Not possible to build on ember. React.js in May 2013 was final missing piece that made Hyperfiddle possible and our first commit was in Dec 2013.

Re: Why is Ember fading away?

#77

Post by snewcomer24 »

For any indie developers, Ember can be extremely productive. In the past year, I have pushed out 3 moderately complex Ember apps in addition to having a full time job. I've reused some code for each application, have been able to depend on backwards compatibility for addons and always have received lots of help from other community members here: embercommunity.slack.com

This is mainly due to my ability to focus on shipping features rather than build processes. Also, depending on Ember Data, ember-cli-mirage, and the JSONAPI spec have allowed me quickly spec out how my schema will look, allowing me to move from the frontend to backend quite seamlessly. I've used React as well to develop widgets and such, but nothing has matched my ability to build, test, and ship features more than Ember.

We are all in this together and should focus on lifting all of us up. Positivity begets positivity.

Re: Why is Ember fading away?

#78

Post by vasilakisfil »

Having worked with React and Ember, in Ember I am super productive. I can setup a whole app in a couple of days. I think the market is so big in front-end that even a relatively small market share is actually quite big in absolute numbers.

Having said that, one of the reasons that Ember's core development seems so slow is because everything is announced beforehand, even discussed before hand. So if a feature A is proposed, it first needs to be submitted through RFC, go through a long period of discussion in Github then implemented and only then released. So it appears that it takes a long time to deliver features but it isn't really like that.

Re: Why is Ember fading away?

#79

Post by dbbk »

shard972 wrote: post #44
anoncoward778 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...will not stand the test of time" Based upon what math do you qualify that statement? What equations do you apply to support this?

Since when did such a statement rely on hard emperical evidence?

You can certainly state it as an opinion, but calling it "the reality" does typically mean backing the assertion up with some substance.

Re: Why is Ember fading away?

#80

Post by parthdesai »

tashoecraft wrote: post #72
parthdesai wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, tbh i haven't kept up with Angular so i wouldn't know for sure. There was Addy Osmani's talk on performances of different JS frameworks and Angular was the slowest. Slower than what chrome team recommends :)

I don’t believe Angular is any bit slower then react currently. Any comparisions I’ve seen usually have some level of bias where the author either chose not to use some feature that would change the comparision to be more equal. I’ll say that Angular recieved alot of flack over the 1-2 change ( alot rightly so ) but it’s really solid now and marching at a steady pace of improvments. I’ve looked over react and vue.js…

Just watch this video when you get time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCMbSyngXB4

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